17-12-2002 10:14									#1
	War Protestors: Anti-American or Patriotic? Remove this text

Discussing this on some show jsut a few moments ago, so I thought I would bring the discussion to you.

Enjoy

	17-12-2002 10:36									#2
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How old?

Under 20 they're just sheep following their peer group, just like the under 20's who are pro-war.

Over 20 they're patriotic, and in fact runnng quite a risk of social scorn. When Bostonians marched against the war in the Common across from my window in 91, dozens of conservatives shouted obscenities at them, threw things, and caught and beat several protestors until the cops got them safely away. One Southie policeman I was talking to during the process started out by grumbling they had it coming, and was so shocked by the "good Americans" that he wound up laying down a full body block so three of the protestors could get away from a guy with an American flag... and a baseball bat.

There are brave people on both sides of the issue. The cowards are the ones who morally oppose war but go along to get along.

	17-12-2002 10:59									#3
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They're neither, and they're both. They have the First Amendment right to express their views. It really depends on the depth (and the reason) for an individual's convictions.

	17-12-2002 11:53									#4
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Patriotic is not really a compliment, so I wouldn't call them that. Anti-America is not really accurate, so I wouldn't call them that, either.

I'd just call them something like anti-killing. As a converse, naturally, those who support war are pro-killing, in this particular case.

	17-12-2002 12:47									#5
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Banana, patriotism is in the eye of the beholder and therefore meaningless in all but a few cases. When Japan launched a sneak attack on us, it was a day of infamy, when we launch sneak attacks on other countries, it's called "self-defense". Kind of explains how the Japanese and Germans could talk themselves into believing their actions were justified...

	17-12-2002 13:47									#6
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they aren't anti-america, but they aren't patriotic.

I have to vote neither. or banana

	17-12-2002 14:30									#7
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War protestors: gullible sheep and terribly short-termist.

	17-12-2002 15:07									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's War protestors: gullible sheep and terribly short-termist.

If I had to venture a guess.....You and Fez

	17-12-2002 15:10									#9
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I am pro-war with proof.

	17-12-2002 15:21									#10
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Anyone who is pro-war in general is insane. A rational viewpoint is that war is a terrible thing that is necessary in certain situations.

So bearing in mind that everyone sane is anti-war, the only difference is what people think is a situation severe enough to warrant it.

Anti-American or Patriotic has nothing to do with it. Criticizing the government of the country in which you live doesn't make you unpatriotic. It would be more unpatriotic to let your country do something you thought would harm it, or you thought was wrong, without saying something against it.

	17-12-2002 15:32									#11
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"Anyone who is pro-war in general is insane. A rational viewpoint is that war is a terrible thing that is necessary in certain situations."

I think we're talking about the war in Iraq here seeing as though that is of immediate consequence, not war in general.

	17-12-2002 15:35									#12
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I am pro-war. It offers something interesting to watch on tv...

I support any war. In fact I think it is time to attack Canada. We have a guy wanted for murder here in Las Vegas and Canada won't turn him over to us saying our justice system is too tough. WTF!! Attack them now!!!!!!!!

	17-12-2002 15:50									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's "Anyone who is pro-war in general is insane. A rational viewpoint is that war is a terrible thing that is necessary in certain situations." I think we're talking about the war in Iraq here seeing as though that is of immediate consequence, not war in general.

Of course. Anyone who's pro a war in Iraq is still insane. Surely most people who would support it think it's terrible but something that they feel is the best way to... do whatever it is they think it will achieve.

	17-12-2002 16:01									#14
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"most people who would support it think it's terrible but something that they feel is the best way to"

Exactly, so pro-war in Iraq. Pro- means you support something, Mike, regardless of how terrible it might be.

I personally think the consequences of not acting will be far more terrible, but feel free to be short-termist and not see past January.

	17-12-2002 16:04									#15
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What do you think the long term consequences of no war will be?

What do you think the long term consequences of a war will be?

	17-12-2002 16:09									#16
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"What do you think the long term consequences of no war will [likely] be?"

Saddam uses his weapons of MD against Western countries (I include Israel in this).

But this depends what happens if there isn't a war - forceful but peaceful invasion by US and UK troops in order to get of the weapons would work.

"What do you think the long term consequences of a war will be?"

Cheaper oil as we take over Iraq.

	17-12-2002 16:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's I personally think the consequences of not acting will be far more terrible, but feel free to be short-termist and not see past January.

Personally, I'm not so sure about who's "being a short-termist" in this context...

	17-12-2002 16:14									#18
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Ok, see what I have a problem with there is your over simplistic idea of what happens after a war.

	17-12-2002 16:29									#19
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Well that's because it depends on about twenty different things and any professional commentator/journalist will tell it better than I.

	17-12-2002 16:35									#20
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Somebody said something about pro-war people being insane? Well that is a lie. Sometimes you have to be pro-war based upon the circumstances. If you honestly want to keep Saddam Hussein in power you are completely insane. In the case of Iraq that is and war must occur immediately in that case.

I don't like nor do I promote war, but sometimes it has to happen. In the Iraqi case, to protest would just be a show of pure ignorance and foolishness.

	17-12-2002 16:45									#21
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Why aren't we going after North Korea they seem far worse

	17-12-2002 16:45									#22
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Here, here Fez.

It's not often I say that, but this time you are reasonable and logical.

	17-12-2002 17:04									#23
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Fez didn't disagree with anything I said.

	17-12-2002 19:17									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Here, here Fez. It's not often I say that, but this time you are reasonable and logical.

Boddy, I would rather you not say anything at all to me because it will only make me look bad.

MikeH:

Oh I didn't?

quote: Of course. Anyone who's pro a war in Iraq is still insane.

	17-12-2002 19:23									#25
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What's un-patriotic about distrusting the government?

They lie (a lot), and they lie most of all when they're seeking an excuse to go to war, like 1898, 1964, 1990. There's nothing patriotic about accepting the administration's words at face value, although there are lots of people who'll say otherwise.

	17-12-2002 19:41									#26
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quote: Why aren't we going after North Korea they seem far worse

Funny you mention that...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ea_clinton_dc_2

As for the topic, what a silly question. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but that's totally subjective and largely irrelevent. Whichever it is they have the right to protest what they believe is wrong. Overall, I think it's a good thing to have some opposition.

-Arrian

	17-12-2002 20:02									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Fez MikeH: Oh I didn't?

No Fez, you didn't. Try to understand what he said - that you can realize war is bad but think it is unfortunately necessary in some cases (like you do with Iraq). Unless of course you think that Iraq should be attacked constantly and without remorse, killing everyone regardless of who their leader is.

	17-12-2002 20:08									#28
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As for protesting, MtG hit it right on the head - it depends upon the reasons behind your views. Frankly, there is nothing less patriotic than believing "my country can never make mistakes". If you love your country, it's because it stands for something. If your government does something that goes against what your country stands for, nothing could be more patriotic than opposing that.

	17-12-2002 20:12									#29
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"If you love your country, it's because it stands for something."

Why not just love what it is that your country stands for?

Love freedom. Love democracy, etc.

It just seems a little daft loving a scrap of land, which is also countries are.

	17-12-2002 20:14									#30
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quote: patriotism is in the eye of the beholder

I agree with that. No two people can agree what patriotism is if they cannot agree what "patria" is. The english language has the insufficient term "homeland" or "fatherland/motherland", but it is something more than that. What it is exactly and what incorporates it is still a question which cannot be answered uniquely by people from different cultural and social backgrounds.

The bourgeois right wing in the US feel that it's patriotic to defend the interests of their oil companies, f.e., because they are interested in the imperialistic domination of their country, because they have property and individual interests in that.

The left wing and the anti-war protestors feel that it's patriotic to try to prevent their country of commiting an agressive action which is morally wrong, and furthermore, will cost billions of $ of their tax money without them getting any benefit and worst of all ,will cost the lives of some of their peers.

So what's really behind patriotism is interests: the economic basis of society. All patriotic sentiment and all instances of people supporting the side in which they have no interests with (Hollywood actors opposing the war on one hand or the average jingoist Joe on the other) is part of the ideological superstructure that helps us define our patriotism. Most of the time this is dominant so "patriotism" or "un-americanism" looks like it is dependent on your current state of mind and on the kind of newspapers you read. However the economic basis of interests lies deeply beneath it.

That's why relatively few Americans oppose the war comparatively with the Europeans; this is basically a war for the American imperialistic interests and as long as it is an agressive action of the American imperialism against all competition, it is not liked by anyone who wants to compete with it, be it the European capitalists or the worldwide anti-capitalist mouvement.