15-01-2003 21:34									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Pretty much any side yes – except Bath maybe.

I wondered a moment if I should not add "to the exception of Bath" when I wrote my post...

quote: In my opinion they do in some ways yes. You might disagree with some of these but I find that Wasps, Saints and Saracens now all operate with back lines that are pretty much always technically offside, sometimes blatantly so. The speed with which players return to their feet is noticeably slower than with their UK coached counterparts and results in a lot of accidental drifting through play – classic Kiwi? Hand on the floor seems to be a ubitiquous feature of play rather than the dark contingency art it should be. And the crucial give away? Whenever the opposition wins set piece ball one of them falls over as if his leg just gave way.

Sounds like an accute description of the SH play.

What bothers me more is the fact the SH and NZ coaches are building a standardized way of playing through the teams they train. This tendancy is backfiring at the supporters of this kind of game as these teams are no more surprising their opponents which would explain why they are no more the leaders in their respective nations. They manage to keep a middle rank in the various Championships (what we call here the "soft belly") because they have vast amounts of money at their disposal and can thus recruit top rank players which can make the difference in critical moments. I might as well be wrong but this the way I am analysing the situation from France through my little knowledge of the game of Rugby.

quote: Just the impressions I get. English coached teams are of course never guilty of any of the above!

Needless to say it, of course!

quote: The flag of that region by the way is four red stripes on a yellow background – four fingers of blood. The area has a bloody history to say the least and hopped between being Spanish and French several times – but Tamerlin will know more about this?

The Catalogne is divided in two parts, one in Spain, one in France. The French Catalogne has been ceded to the Royaume de France et de Navarre along with the Roussillon after the Traité des Pyrénées which ended the conflict between France and Spain in november 1659. The treaty also included the wedding contract between Louis the XIVth and Marie-Thérèse, Spain's Infant.

Nowadays, it is difficult to know who the Catalans dislike the most, the French (often labelled "gabatch", a derogatory word in Catalan which exact meaning I don't remember) or the Spanish Catalans though the "Champion of the world" title in this matter is holded (and well defended) by they ancestral ennemies the "Narbonnais" (inhabitants of the town of Narbonne). This conflict expresses itself naturally in the famous tough derbies between the Racing Club de Narbonne Méditerranée and the Union Sportive des Arlequins de Perpignan.

	15-01-2003 23:55									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Interesting choice to quote Auckland though. He should have chosen a team that had won something recently (or rather something important) to make it a credible strike back on his part.

You may find the winners of that "unimportant" little competition coming back to haunt you in this year's RWC.

quote: I can assure you SH guys that you have no idea how thoroughly it ruined the reputation of Super 12 up here that the most successful coach in that tournaments history is Graham "clueless" Henry. he is even a laughing stock in Wales (and you have no idea quite how bad that is!?)

I don't see why Henry should be considered the most successful coach in Super 12 history. As far as I can remember, he was an Auckland coach, and Auckland only won the first two S12 competitions whereas Canterbury have won four.

quote: If I dare be serious can we open a discussion about the Kiwi coaches up here and how they are affecting our game? Buck Shelford and Wayne Smith seem to be great guys but I am concerned at how they are turning great old English clubs into mini-ABs - and I don't mean flair and class but rather pushing the envelope of the laws of course.

Oh the humanity! Won't somebody think of the children?! I know losing to former colonies is a treasured English tradition, but it can't last forever can it?

Seriously though, if these English clubs want to learn from the masters, so be it.

	15-01-2003 23:59									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Havak In my opinion they do in some ways yes. You might disagree with some of these but I find that Wasps, Saints and Saracens now all operate with back lines that are pretty much always technically offside, sometimes blatantly so.

Didn't one of those teams recently beat Leicester? If their offside play was not being penalised, then what happened to those wonderful NH refs we keep hearing about?

	16-01-2003 04:10									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Didn't one of those teams recently beat Leicester? If their offside play was not being penalised, then what happened to those wonderful NH refs we keep hearing about?

The French referees are the last keepers of the game, this is why there are none in the pannel.

Beautiful AB flag by the way.

	16-01-2003 05:18									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Havak In my opinion they do in some ways yes. You might disagree with some of these but I find that Wasps, Saints and Saracens now all operate with back lines that are pretty much always technically offside, sometimes blatantly so. The speed with which players return to their feet is noticeably slower than with their UK coached counterparts and results in a lot of accidental drifting through play – classic Kiwi? Hand on the floor seems to be a ubitiquous feature of play rather than the dark contingency art it should be. And the crucial give away? Whenever the opposition wins set piece ball one of them falls over as if his leg just gave way.

Yes, you'd already covered the illegal aspects. That aside, I was asking about the actual rugby they're coaching, the style of game.

	16-01-2003 05:27									#276
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Strong centres battling for the centre of the field, short passes with spontaneous scrums (and almost no mauls) until the defense is more concentrated and then crossing of the advantage line. The backs are prefered strong and heavier than usual rather than quick, if you are looking for light cavalry charges towards the wings, turn your head and look elsewhere.

	16-01-2003 06:19									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I don't know much on this subject but it seems that the French teams trained by NZ coaches have the tendancy to evolve towards a standardized game, a copy of what is done in New Zealand without its internationals, a caricature of the SH and NZ game actually.

Umm. I hate to be picky and I'm probably only stating the blindly obvious but that shouldn't really come as too much of a surprise should it?
Additionally, if this is such a departure from the usual playing style, it'd surely take a while to "get it right" so to speak (Don't misread this. I didn't intend to (re)start the "SH is better than NH" debate) and those teams in the process of changing "styles", with SH coaches, shouldn't expect instant results.

	16-01-2003 07:03									#278
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Umm. I hate to be picky and I'm probably only stating the blindly obvious but that shouldn't really come as too much of a surprise should it?

quote: Additionally, if this is such a departure from the usual playing style, it'd surely take a while to "get it right" so to speak (Don't misread this. I didn't intend to (re)start the "SH is better than NH" debate) and those teams in the process of changing "styles", with SH coaches, shouldn't expect instant results.

You are right, the results must be evaluated on the long term. We are not talking about all the SH coaches but of the New zealander ones. Nick Mallett has done a very good job with the Stade Français where coaches from NZ have only standardized the game of their team without much improving the overall results of the said teams. I think they are trying to enforce a game the french players, and to a lesser extent the english players, are not made for as the physical qualities and the way of playing are very different.

	16-01-2003 10:23									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Nick Mallett has done a very good job with the Stade Français

What style is he coaching? Do you know?

	16-01-2003 13:33									#280
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quote: Yes, you'd already covered the illegal aspects. That aside, I was asking about the actual rugby they're coaching, the style of game.

The only common style to the three sides I mentioned is the illegality I think.

quote: I think they are trying to enforce a game the french players, and to a lesser extent the english players, are not made for as the physical qualities and the way of playing are very different.

The other disasterous thing some of the Kiwis and Aussies in our setups are doing is bringing in SH talent.
Frankly I think some are too old or plain not good enough for top flight rugger myself. Others, like Kronfeld, Horan, Jorgensen etc. are great to see in action. But it really isn't good for our game as it stops English talent getting top flight match play?

By the way the least successful foreign coach in the top flight? Foley. Sadly the old war horse has failed to turn Bath around Finbar.

Well I say sadly...I'm sure Vulture understands what I am saying.

Actually a quick question for Vulture - can you believe Wasps let Melville go - the man was always quality. Probably second only to his old team mate Deano as English coaches go. Between them I suspect we have the future England and a future Lions coach - and seeing who will be which should be fun?

	16-01-2003 15:24									#281
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quote: Originally posted by finbar What style is he coaching? Do you know?

Nick Mallett has played and lived in France for a long time, he knows the French Rugby and the players well. I know he is enforcing a strong discipline but I can't say more as I have not seen the Stade Français playing this year, the Stade Toulousain is playing in Pool 2 where the Stade Français is in Pool 1.

	16-01-2003 16:50									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Actually a quick question for Vulture - can you believe Wasps let Melville go - the man was always quality. Probably second only to his old team mate Deano as English coaches go. Between them I suspect we have the future England and a future Lions coach - and seeing who will be which should be fun?

The joys of professional sports - good coaches are often fired when the team owners panic because they lost a game. I think many clubs have a long tradition of firing someone who then goes on to be an excellent coach elsewhere. I suppose that sometimes it can be good for both the club and the coach though. Being fired can make a coach focus more on what he is doing, and re-evaluate his methods to trim out stuff that perhaps wasn't working as well as had been hoped. Meanwhile bringing in a new coach (or a new player for that matter) can give the players a fresh way of looking at the game, which can motivate them more. Plus you get rid of some old grudges that might have been hanging around. It is possible that Wasps would have been worse under Melville than under his less talented ( ) replacement.

We had a similar situation with Philippe Saint Andre, who took over from Richer Dill. PSA was a great player, and made a pretty good coach. And the sight and sound of 10,000 west country inbreds singing 'La Marseillaise' is one to savour. But after a few years in the job he had increasing problems with some of the players, to the extent that almost anyone would have got better performances out of the team, and PSA would have done far better elsewhere that in Gloucester. Still, I was sad to see him leave.

At the other end of the stupidity spectrum we have the recent example (forgive me, I'm about to mention a s****r team) of Leeds, who hired David O'Leary when they were near the bottom of the league (22 teams), and fired him when they finished 4th with a very young and inexperienced team, on the grounds that the management wanted to do better than 4th. Now they are back in the bottom half of the table again... I don't know anyone who could see any sense in that decision, at the time, or with hindsight.

Back to rugby. Melville is a great coach. He's helped out in Gloucester by having a pretty good squad to pick from of course, but he's had better than expected success wherever he's coached, I think. Could well be a future Lions coach. Possibly England as well, but given how much success ol' Woodentop is enjoying, I don't think that there is going to be a vacancy there in the near future, unless the English rugby board has a seizure and decides to fire him if England come in 2nd place or worse in the world cup.

	16-01-2003 20:57									#283
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Your reply can be compared to a reply I wrote myself a few posts before. It is easier and lest costly to fire a coach than to fire some players of the team.

	17-01-2003 02:52									#284
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quote: Originally posted by vulture the sight and sound of 10,000 west country inbreds singing 'La Marseillaise'

Now that is something I wish I'd heard.

quote: Could well be a future Lions coach.

Something I've wondered about. Graham Henry was considered a failure for, I gather, a variety of reasons - person management, tactics, and so on. But what's the recipe for a good Lions coach? How different is it to the recipe for a good national team coach? Or even club coach? I suppose the obvious starting ingredient would be the ability to weld players from 4 different unions into a single unified outfit. But beyond that?

	17-01-2003 03:05									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Beautiful AB flag by the way.

Thanks!

	17-01-2003 03:13									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Thanks!

Is this the only interesting thing I have said in all my last posts?

	17-01-2003 03:17									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Is this the only interesting thing I have said in all my last posts?

No, its not. I just don't have a lot of time at the moment.

	17-01-2003 03:20									#288
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Now that is something I wish I'd heard.

You would have liked to see a French Championship final in the mythical Parc des Princes.

	17-01-2003 03:26									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia No, its not. I just don't have a lot of time at the moment.

I'am kidding, don't worry!

I have read an interesting article in the international part of the Midi Olympique about Wales and the Howlett case (apparently solved as he is staying in New Zealand), I will post more on this subject this week-end.

	17-01-2003 16:29									#290
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quote: He's helped out in Gloucester by having a pretty good squad to pick from of course

True. And all the more remarkable because it’s a relatively small squad too. I still think long term injuries to your first choice half backs and you are in trouble to be honest. Our position is much healthier as we don’t have any first choice half backs right now!

Dead right about Leeds – though their demise bothers me not at all. I’m not a s***** fan in any way at all.

quote: Now that is something I wish I'd heard

It doesn’t begin to compare to “Glaaaawssster” being chanted by them. Not a one of them knew the words to the 'La Marseillaise’ so they did what all Brits do at HQ – make it up and sing along.

“A rinky dinky Parlais vous..la la la la, au revoir”.

quote: But what's the recipe for a good Lions coach?

In all honesty I think the first pre-requisite has to be that they be a Brit?

quote: How different is it to the recipe for a good national team coach?

The main difference is one of time in which to work. National coaches these days name extended training squads and get to work with the same players at numerous training session throughout the year. A Lions squad of 37 players comes together for 8 weeks or so and a large number will be totally unknown to the coach. You need to ability to make quick judgements, to adjust to the strengths of your talent (and you may not have chosen some yourself!), and to be a diplomat all of the time as you pointed out.

It’s where Henry fell down – obsessed with shapes and patterns he imposed them on a squad dominated by English players who were being coached ‘thinking’ or ‘heads up’ rugby by Woodward.

It was a marriage made in hell.

Worse than that he used the same patterns Blues used in S12 apparently and all the Aussies knew exactly how to play that. Look at the first test in Brisbane – the Lions won because individuals made smart choices and managed good finishes. No team could have stopped the O’Driscoll try when he broke the tackle of your centre and few players can stop Jason Robinson going forward in space (though we have seen ample proof he lacks going backwards – the Flatley try!).

Back to Melbourne, back to patterns that the Wallabies closed down very effectively and different story. So he’ll give the English players their head in Sydney right. Wrong! I think the myth of Graham Henry as a decent coach died in Sydney that day? He’ll never work up here again. The only reason the Lions made a decent showing was that Andy Robinson was there marshalling the forwards, who looked good throughout the series.

There look – I got me started again.

	17-01-2003 21:42									#291
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Hey, did you guys know they have a rugby channel in New Zealand now? *drool* You have to pay extra to get it, of course, but I reckon it would be worth it! Now if only I could get one here in New York...

	18-01-2003 02:36									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Hey, did you guys know they have a rugby channel in New Zealand now? *drool* You have to pay extra to get it, of course, but I reckon it would be worth it! Now if only I could get one here in New York...

Rugby 24 hours a day, its looks like the "land of eternal scrums" (you know, just remember, this is the strange little scene where seven players from each team, called forwards, were placed in three rows and used to push in order to gain the ball introduced by a little hoping man called a half-scrum).

	18-01-2003 03:01									#293
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quote: But what's the recipe for a good Lions coach?

quote: In all honesty I think the first pre-requisite has to be that they be a Brit?

Graham Henry??

	18-01-2003 05:12									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Hey, did you guys know they have a rugby channel in New Zealand now? *drool*

Haven't I always argued that New Zealand leads the world in the sophistication stakes? And here's the proof!

The closest we come to it here is a dedicated AFL (Aussie Rules) channel on Foxtel.

	18-01-2003 05:27									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It doesn’t begin to compare to “Glaaaawssster” being chanted by them. Not a one of them knew the words to the 'La Marseillaise’ so they did what all Brits do at HQ – make it up and sing along. “A rinky dinky Parlais vous..la la la la, au revoir”.

Yet another contribution to international goodwill.

quote: In all honesty I think the first pre-requisite has to be that they be a Brit?

I suppose it would be nice, and in-keeping, but I wouldn't have thought it a pre-requisite. Subject, that is, to whomever-it-is knowing the Brit set up - and the respective Unions, and the players - inside out, upside down and back to front, which, obviously, would mean they would already be somewhere inside the Brit system. I don't think G. Henry's failure can be put down simply to the fact that he wasn't a Brit.

quote: The main difference is one of time in which to work. National coaches these days name extended training squads and get to work with the same players at numerous training session throughout the year. A Lions squad of 37 players comes together for 8 weeks or so and a large number will be totally unknown to the coach. You need to ability to make quick judgements, to adjust to the strengths of your talent (and you may not have chosen some yourself!), and to be a diplomat all of the time as you pointed out.

Mmmm. Fair enough. Very very tall order. So who, IYHO, would rank as the best Lions coach till this point? And who, IYHO, would qualify as the next Lions coach to be appointed?

quote: It’s where Henry fell down – obsessed with shapes and patterns he imposed them on a squad dominated by English players who were being coached ‘thinking’ or ‘heads up’ rugby by Woodward. It was a marriage made in hell. Worse than that he used the same patterns Blues used in S12 apparently and all the Aussies knew exactly how to play that. Look at the first test in Brisbane – the Lions won because individuals made smart choices and managed good finishes. No team could have stopped the O’Driscoll try when he broke the tackle of your centre and few players can stop Jason Robinson going forward in space (though we have seen ample proof he lacks going backwards – the Flatley try!). Back to Melbourne, back to patterns that the Wallabies closed down very effectively and different story. So he’ll give the English players their head in Sydney right. Wrong!

Very good assessment of the events. The Wallabies went into the series undercooked and their discpline and commitment - and reading of the Lions game - saw them through. Something more unpredictable might have seen them caught short.

quote: There look – I got me started again.

Modern medicine has it that a Stress Relief Valve can lengthen your life. More than 8 gallons of bitter, anyway.

	18-01-2003 05:29									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Myrddin Graham Henry??

That's a very cryptic comment, Myrddin.

	19-01-2003 05:58									#297
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Results of interest - or otherwise! - to the thread:

Munster vs Gloucester 33-6

Henry Paul displayed his customary absence of quality at fullback.

Leicester vs Neath 36-11

	19-01-2003 07:57									#298
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Results of interest - or otherwise! - to the thread: Munster vs Gloucester 33-6 Henry Paul displayed his customary absence of quality at fullback. Leicester vs Neath 36-11

I am rather surprised by Gloucester defeat, it would be interesting to know what the Union Sportive des Arlequins de Perpignan has done as they are playing in the same pool. Perpignan was promised to meet the Stade Toulousain at the Stade Ernest Wallon. Will it be Gloucester?

	19-01-2003 08:22									#299
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Viadana vs Perpignan 35-39

Defence didn't seem to play much of a part in the game!

Here's a link to the HC results.

Last edited by finbar on 19-01-2003 at 08:35

	20-01-2003 00:17									#300
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It won't be Gloucester as it is eliminated, Havak's Evil Eye seems to have somme effects, I think the team would have been qualified if the players had scored a try...

The qualified french teams are :

Stade Toulousain
Biarritz Olympique (very lucky on this one...)
Union Sportive des Arlequins de Perpignan which "has felt the wind of the cannonball" ("a senti le vent du boulet" ) as we say in France.

The Stade Toulousain (number two of the whole phase because of its defeat against the London Irish) should play at home against the Munster province.



Note the Stade Toulousain is the only french team playing at home.