09-01-2003 17:29									#181
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Beautifully written, Tamerlin.

Thanks Finbar, it is easier when it comes from the heart.

quote: I understand completely. OTOH, I still think they're largely money-making exercises.

They are now money exercises, I don't think it was the case when they were instituted.

I am against money exercises which are overthrowing traditions, I can't really be against money exercises which allow for a tradition to survive... as long as its initial spirit is not perverted.

	09-01-2003 18:43									#182
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You need to be careful taking about traditions to the SH - after all S12 would kill to have some rather than being the cash cow construct it is.

I see Howlett was indeed doing a 'Lomu' to get more money in his new contract as we predicted.

And i see the next U-21 RWC will be in Blighty. Excellent.

Nice picture of Rathbone lifting the U-21 trophy for the Boks last year (as their captain!!!) on Planet Rugby today. To open an old debate please explain to me why this young Bok can now be Australian in any way shape or form?

You know my position on Welsh Rugby but even they have more integrity than to hop nationalities for the better contract.

Seriously Finbar this has got to be stopped. The second you wear a national jersey at any level surely that should be it? It makes a mockery of things otherwise?

	09-01-2003 19:19									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You need to be careful taking about traditions to the SH - after all S12 would kill to have some rather than being the cash cow construct it is.

You have to start from nothing when you don't have an old competition but money only is not a good foundation to build something on.

quote: I see Howlett was indeed doing a 'Lomu' to get more money in his new contract as we predicted.

A Rugby neologism is born: "to do his lomu"...

	10-01-2003 02:32									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Isn't it the duty of any genuine supporter?

	10-01-2003 02:38									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Thanks Finbar, it is easier when it comes from the heart.

Isn't it?

quote: They are now money exercises, I don't think it was the case when they were instituted.

Very true.

quote: I am against money exercises which are overthrowing traditions, I can't really be against money exercises which allow for a tradition to survive... as long as its initial spirit is not perverted.

I'm a traditionalist anyway, so despite my cynicism - about finals being a money-making exercise - I would hate to see traditions overturned without very, very good reason.

	10-01-2003 02:43									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You need to be careful taking about traditions to the SH - after all S12 would kill to have some rather than being the cash cow construct it is.

*Havak digs into his Tigers-emblazoned kitbag looking for bait and comes up with a tiddler*

quote: Nice picture of Rathbone lifting the U-21 trophy for the Boks last year (as their captain!!!) on Planet Rugby today. To open an old debate please explain to me why this young Bok can now be Australian in any way shape or form? You know my position on Welsh Rugby but even they have more integrity than to hop nationalities for the better contract. Seriously Finbar this has got to be stopped. The second you wear a national jersey at any level surely that should be it? It makes a mockery of things otherwise?

*Havak digs once more into his Tigers-emblazoned kitbag looking for bait and comes up with a hoary old chestnut*

	10-01-2003 15:50									#187
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Look at that - both struck home.

Personally I'm writing to the IRB asking that the "shirt of convenience" nature of tri-nations rugby be banned outright.

A lad wins the U-21 world cup as a Bok and two years later thinks he can play for the Wallabies? And no one else finds that outrageous?

Thank god we English still hold true to the idea that actually representing one's own nationality (as opposed to the best paying union) means something.

With Catt gone we are pure English once more.

Well okay Dan Luger is half croat. Phil Christophers was born in Germany (Dad in the Army) and lets face it Phil Vickery plays for Gloucester and is Cornish by birth both of which are polite euphanisms for actually being a TAFFY.

But apart from that...

	10-01-2003 20:05									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Look at that - both struck home. Personally I'm writing to the IRB asking that the "shirt of convenience" nature of tri-nations rugby be banned outright. A lad wins the U-21 world cup as a Bok and two years later thinks he can play for the Wallabies? And no one else finds that outrageous?

I think it is crazy personally, even if it is the only way Wales can get a good team Just to help the WRU along, I notice they've cancelled the Wales-A participation in the 6 nations A competition, because it was losing money. It's not as though we need the pratice of playing at a higher level or anything

quote: Well okay Dan Luger is half croat. Phil Christophers was born in Germany (Dad in the Army) and lets face it Phil Vickery plays for Gloucester and is Cornish by birth both of which are polite euphanisms for actually being a TAFFY. But apart from that...

I hate to be pedantic (that's a lie - I love it), but I used to go out drinking with Phil Christophers' Dad when I lived in Germany (up until about 6 weeks ago in fact), and I'm pretty sure he's not in the army. I've also been bringing him around to the idea that Phil ought to play at Gloucester next season (especially since he prefers to play inside center rather than wing).

	10-01-2003 20:38									#189
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Sorry Vulture - that snippet on his dad was courtesy of Stuart Barnes on Sky - should have known not to trust it!!!

You know the sensible option for the lad is to come to Tigers of course.

But then there is no real chance of that as he has been blown out by us once already - but then you probably know that via his dad!?

Having said that When Murphy and Booth are both fit and on form there is no one else I would choose to play on our wing. The Centre option is interesting though.

You are dead right about Wales. Losing the A side is all about their crusade to stop leaking cash like an old tap. But it's suicidal as it takes away another level between club and full cap test play.

By the way I lived and worked in Gloucester for a while as a youngster so I'm a little more entitled to take the mickey out of it than most Tigers fans.

	10-01-2003 21:21									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You are dead right about Wales. Losing the A side is all about their crusade to stop leaking cash like an old tap. But it's suicidal as it takes away another level between club and full cap test play.

This is not a Welsh only issue, the French Rugby union has also questioned the A-team Six Nations Tournament last year, I am afraid the welsh decsion is sounding like the end of the A-team tournament.

	11-01-2003 03:12									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Personally I'm writing to the IRB asking that the "shirt of convenience" nature of tri-nations rugby be banned outright.

SCENE: IRB Headquarters.
CAST: 2 IRB BODS.

IRB BOD #1 picks up a newly-arrived letter:

IRB BOD #1: "Here's a letter with a Leicester postmark written on Tigers letterhead".

IRB BOD #2: "Straight into the rubbish bin".

	11-01-2003 03:15									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin This is not a Welsh only issue, the French Rugby union has also questioned the A-team Six Nations Tournament last year, I am afraid the welsh decsion is sounding like the end of the A-team tournament.

Gee, I didn't even know there was a 6 Nations A-team competition. Sounds like a good idea in principle - giving more players experience at international level. I assume sponsorship is the problem? Or crowds?

	11-01-2003 03:18									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Havak By the way I lived and worked in Gloucester for a while as a youngster so I'm a little more entitled to take the mickey out of it than most Tigers fans.

Presumably there aren't any Gloucester fans who have lived and worked in Leicester - thus entitling them to take the mickey out of the Tigers - because they'd rather starve first.

	11-01-2003 04:31									#194
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quote: Originally posted by finbar SCENE: IRB Headquarters. CAST: 2 IRB BODS. IRB BOD #1 picks up a newly-arrived letter: IRB BOD #1: "Here's a letter with a Leicester postmark written on Tigers letterhead". IRB BOD #2: "Straight into the rubbish bin".

IRB BOD #3: "Wait! It can be funny to read it".

	11-01-2003 18:42									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin IRB BOD #3: "Wait! It can be funny to read it".

IRB BOD #1: "Gee, it's even got a Tigers stamp on the envelope. His missus must've given him a heap of Tigers merchandise for Christmas".

	12-01-2003 04:45									#196
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*snigger*

	12-01-2003 04:50									#197
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Heineken Cup results of interest to the thread:

Amatori Calvisano vs Leicester 22-40*

*I'll be interested to hear Havak's report on this match. Reading the reports, the Italians seem to have scored pretty freely in the second half though way too far behind to threaten.

Gloucester vs Viadana 64-16

Toulouse vs Newport 70-18

I know I've remarked on this before, but it's a very strange top-level competition that produces such consistently lopsided results.

Last edited by finbar on 12-01-2003 at 04:55

	12-01-2003 19:54									#198
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Some other results:

Heineken Cup:

Northampton vs. Biarritz Olympique 17-14 (Biarritz probably not qualified)

Union Sportive des Arlequins de Perpignan vs. Munster 23-8 (Perpignan can still qualify itself)

Llanecli vs. CS Bourgoin-Jailleu 37-22 (Bougoin can still be qualified thanks to a greater number of tries)


European Shield:

Montauban Tarn-et-Garonne XV vs. Bath 27-24
The MTG XV can dream of a qualification, surprising result as Montauban is among the lasts of its pool in the french championship and has lost 38-06 against the Stade Toulousain last week. What is wrong with Bath struggling in the British championship with 14 internationals in its team?

quote: Originally posted by finbar I know I've remarked on this before, but it's a very strange top-level competition that produces such consistently lopsided results.

This is a problem you can spot in almost all high level competitions in Europe. Most of the real games start after the qualifying pools. If we look closer at the Super 12 we can also point at wide discrepancies between the teams, scores over 50 or 60 are not unusual. I think the team selection should be stricter in the H-Cup and that the European Shield should be the competition used to include the clubs coming from the weaker countries.

	13-01-2003 03:21									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin This is a problem you can spot in almost all high level competitions in Europe. Most of the real games start after the qualifying pools. If we look closer at the Super 12 we can also point at wide discrepancies between the teams, scores over 50 or 60 are not unusual. I think the team selection should be stricter in the H-Cup and that the European Shield should be the competition used to include the clubs coming from the weaker countries.

Yes, you get the occasional blow-out in S12 but nowhere near as consistently as in the HC. Obviously the difference is in the size of the competition. I suspect you're right - the qualification for the HC needs to be re-examined. I can't see that any of the Italian clubs deserve their spot so you'd end up with a HC dominated by English and French clubs, with a smattering of clubs from Ireland and Wales. It would create a more even competition but a pretty narrow one.

	13-01-2003 03:27									#200
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quote: Originally posted by finbar It would create a more even competition but a pretty narrow one.

This is the main problem, the other nations won't progress if they can't play against the stronger ones. this is really a difficult issue.

	13-01-2003 03:35									#201
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quote: Northampton vs. Biarritz Olympique 17-14 (Biarritz probably not qualified)

At least there will be Toulouse...

	13-01-2003 04:02									#202
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare At least there will be Toulouse...

Disappointing performances from Biarritz, I hope Perpignan will qualify itself next week and with a bit of luck Bourgoin will also be invited to the party.

	13-01-2003 04:54									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin This is the main problem, the other nations won't progress if they can't play against the stronger ones. this is really a difficult issue.

Yes, I suspect the "playing against stronger teams helps lift your own standards" argument is a bit of an academic argument. It's right in theory, but it only really comes true in reality if the weaker team is taking steps to improve in other areas such as junior coaching and development. If you haven't got the talent, no amount of playing against superior teams is going to help you.

	13-01-2003 04:55									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I hope Perpignan will qualify itself next week

Me too! I want to see some more of Manny Edmonds calling plays in French!

	13-01-2003 07:45									#205
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Hey Guys...

I'm back from my trip to New Zealand. Had a great time visiting my family and seeing the country. Its great being able to swim in clean, fresh waterfalls...

Attachment: dcp_1202.jpg
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	13-01-2003 07:48									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I see Howlett was indeed doing a 'Lomu' to get more money in his new contract as we predicted.

I heard about this while in NZ. From what I read it seems all he wants to do is be paid the same as the other guys...

	13-01-2003 09:54									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Hey Guys... I'm back from my trip to New Zealand. Had a great time visiting my family and seeing the country. Its great being able to swim in clean, fresh waterfalls...

You mean lying in a NYC gutter under an open fire hydrant won't do it for you anymore?

Oh, and welcome back. We've been incredibly naughty in your absence. Well, Tamerlin has anyway.

	13-01-2003 11:59									#208
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quote: Originally posted by finbar You mean lying in a NYC gutter under an open fire hydrant won't do it for you anymore?

In Auckland there are some oxidation ponds used for treating sewage that look a bit like a lake. Lately they have had to put up signs explaining this because a few japanese tourists have been going swimming.

"oohhhh....beautiful New Zearand rake! We go for swim!"

quote: Oh, and welcome back. We've been incredibly naughty in your absence. Well, Tamerlin has anyway.

I think I can find it in my heart to forgive him. Nice piece of writing BTW Tamerlin.

	13-01-2003 13:03									#209
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Check out my photos thread guys.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73836

	13-01-2003 13:22									#210
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quote: At least there will be Toulouse...

Should be tasty semi finals as Tamerlins boys are lilkely to meet either Gloucester or Leicester in them once the formality of the home QFs are done (fingers crossed).

Northampton were lucky in the extreme - not least because Alun Lewis of Ireland is an SH type ref (i.e fairly blind)

I shall be supporting Ulster against them next weekend. Oh and Munster too. But I can't remember who they are playing - remind me Vulture?