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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by ayronis
Genesis 1:25-27, Humans are created after the other animals.
Genesis 2:18-19, Out of the ground God forms each animal and brings it before Adam to name.
How could Adam name the animals as they were created if he was created after them? |
BTW so you know I believe in theistic creation...God set the universe in motion, however we are the product of evolution, the universe is billions of years old etc....I am a STRONG believer in science.
*Busts out his HEBREW copy of the Torah and translates, as those are both HORRIBLE translations*
Line 25- God made wild beasts of all kinds and of every kind, and all kinds of creeping things of the earth. And God saw that this was good.
Line 26-And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness. They shall rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle, the whole earth, and all the creeping things that creep on earth.
Line 27-And God created man in His image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Yes, humans are created AFTER animals in order, but not based on them.....just pointing out your fallacy in translation.
Line 18- The lord God said, It is not good for man to be alone; I will make a fitting helper for him.
Line 19- and the Lord God CALLED out of the earth all the wild beasts and all the birds of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that would be its name.....
Quote the right scripture if your going to bash your bible......okay? Thanks.
IN FACT if your going to bash your bibal, bash YOUR OWN as the vast, vast majority of Jews will tell you that evolution is fact(even those who are very devout, lebuvich(black hats etc....))-we dont apreciate you taking our texts to preach ignorance.
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
But why search after God if there is no reliable definition of God to search for? How do you know if you ever attain knowlege of God if he only means for us to have metaphor and allegory to compare with? Why search for God (Jehovah) rather than the aforementioned supernatural goat (among countless other things)? |
If that was directed at Jews, we dont call our God Jehovah(just wanted to point this out heh). One of the ways we spell God's name with with 2 of the letter "yud" which is the equivlent of Y, but it isnt pronounced phonetically, so this got confused somewhere along the way, till some gentile just said its is pronounced Jehovah.......Yud-Yud is pronounced Adonai, just wanted to point that out! 
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Zero
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Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by loinburger
If Creationists were consistent in their rejection of science then I'd not try to "impose" my beliefs on them to the extent that I do. However, Creationists notoriously reject one field of science simply because they don't happen to like it ("I don't like the results that these astronomers are coming up with, because life just isn't worth living if the earth orbits the sun, so I'm going to reject the entire field of astronomy due solely to my arbitrary and completely subjective beliefs"), while accepting another field (or even another aspect of the rejected field) when it proves to be useful/helpful ("Sure I'll use your vaccine, Mr. Salk, just don't try to fill my head with all of your crazy talk about 'biology'"). It's one thing to be a Luddite, but it's another thing entirely to be an inconsistent Luddite. |
Science believers dont even agree on everything. Creationists are just the same way, theres some more dogmatic than others, there are some that are more scientist-like... You can't possibly consider a group to think all equally the same way!
Unless if you're talking about an individual.
Also, how do you explain a scientist carrying a rabbit's foot? Is that contradictory too?
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:24
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quote:
Numerous Biblical errors and contradictions are evidence enough that the Bible isn't infallible (or even particularly reliable), and that it therefore does not supercede scientific evidence. |
that you don't understand the bible doesn't mean it has contradictions.
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Take fossil records for example. |
you saw it?
why?
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and micro-evolution |
which is mutation / degeneration with profits.
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I am not to knowledable about science but there is certainly a hundred more things to prove evolution. |
you're not 'knowledgable' but you're still sure that there are a hundred more things.........
amazing!
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How old is the earth? Some creationists say 6,000, some say 10,000 and some say 12,000 years old. |
We can't be sure, but that's no problem. Is it?
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But selection leads to an evolution in that species in the long term |
selection could only lead to evolution if there's something to chose from.
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The bible does appear to be fallible, but that's okay. |
I think it might be fallable on some minor issues. (dates, names) and there are of course different writers who interpret different things differently. (and in some cases both answers are right.)
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The order of Creation is given differently within the first few books of Genesis. They couldn't even start it without a contradiction. |
you were there?
quote:
Genesis 1:25-27, Humans are created after the other animals.
Genesis 2:18-19, Out of the ground God forms each animal and brings it before Adam to name.
How could Adam name the animals as they were created if he was created after them? |
another example of a silly contradiction.
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Science IS always questioned, that's what makes it science. |
the cool thing is that if it's questioned by alike-thinkers (atheists, evolutionists) it's ok.
If it's questoined by a creationist, the person who asks is a fool thus his question is not valid.
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Creationists hold to a dogma they view as unquestionable because they take on faith it is God's doing, and questioning God is not allowed. That's why it's not science. |
evolution is unquestionable in they eyes of most of you guys here. Again: you're not different, you're all fanatics!
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However, Creationism doesn't stand up under scientific observation. Evolution, so far, has. Ergo it is a scientifically valid theory, Creationism is not. |
I disagree with it, thus it's not a valid theory
Quiet a simplistic view you hold friend Boris!
There are several scientific creationists who do scientific research and have a scientific grade.
quote:
Evolution also has been updated numerous times (based on new findings) since its discovery by Charles Darwin. |
Evolution as been teached by Darwin is a complete different theory than teached in modern times. The scientists only stucked to the 'all from one' part.
And in 300 years much of the current science will be concidered to be silly and backwardds.
quote:
I think ur underestimating the amount of time you have stated over there.... |
circular reasoning,
- evolution needs much time
- the universe must be veeeeeeeery old
- fossils we found must be veeeeery old as well
- these old fossils we found show that evolution took muuuuuuuch time
some scientists play with time as a child plays with water.
Time gives opportunities indeed. But time comes with problems as well.
Many problems!
BUt those problems are underestimated.
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Do you have any idea of the temporal difference between even a hundred years and a BILLION years? It's an enormous difference. |
Do you know what disasters can happen in a billion years?
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Creationists are the one saying their theory should be taught as science |
I'm not sure if I'm a creatoinist, but I think it should not be teached as science.
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FNBrown: Any Google search for biblical contradictions will provide you with a whole slew of them. Specifically, I ran a search for bible + contradictions -- here are some excerpts from the first site that came up... |
*gasp*
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Are we saved through works? |
No, through faith, but something that does not have works can't be faith. (short said)
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Does God change his mind? |
read further than the dictionairy words.
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Does God tempt people? |
there are two ways to temp.
temp people by pressure (do they still follow God during pressure)
and temping people to sin.
God does not do the latter.
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loinburger
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Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Calc II
Science believers dont even agree on everything. |
Yes, the difference being that when a scientist disagrees with another scientist, he/she is expected to give a reasonable justification for the disagreement. Creationists (who reject evolution) do not do this -- their argument boils down to "I don't like evolution, therefore I disagree with it."
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Creationists are just the same way, theres some more dogmatic than others, there are some that are more scientist-like... You can't possibly consider a group to think all equally the same way! |
Some Creationists arbitrarily reject more scientific evidence than others (there's a difference between a young-earth creationist and an old-earth creationist, f'rinstance), but the fundamental flaw in reasoning stays the same. I never have contentions with the Creationists who don't arbitrarily reject scientific evidence, since they already accept evolution.
quote:
Also, how do you explain a scientist carrying a rabbit's foot? Is that contradictory too? |
Being a scientist does not automatically mean that one has a wholesale rejection of the supernatural, so no, I don't immediately see a contradiction.
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ayronis
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New Haven, CT
Nov 2002
time: 00:24
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quote:
Line 18- The lord God said, It is not good for man to be alone; I will make a fitting helper for him.
Line 19- and the Lord God CALLED out of the earth all the wild beasts and all the birds of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that would be its name.....
Quote the right scripture if your going to bash your bible......okay? Thanks.
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Well now. I was simply paraphrasing it as it appears in the King James Edition (the most widely used English Translation in the world)
18: And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19: And out of the ground the LORD God FORMED every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
The problem isn't between my translation (not mine anyways, i was paraphrasing) and yours, its the difference between the Christian Bible and the Jewish one.
Your translation is accurate. I read Biblical Hebrew too, I checked and I agree.
quote:
IN FACT if your going to bash your bibal, bash YOUR OWN as the vast, vast majority of Jews will tell you that evolution is fact(even those who are very devout, lebuvich(black hats etc....))-we dont apreciate you taking our texts to preach ignorance.
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And I don't appreciate your speaking for the entire community of Jews. State your own opinions - fine. But don't presume to know the will of Jews everywhere.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
How do you know this is God's intention? After all, if the Bible is fallible, then any statement therein saying it is God's intention that it be fallible so people would seek him out is also questionable. It could just be fallible because the people who wrote it didn't know what they were talking about. |
This is a good objection Boris. As I said, some may think that accepting that the Bible is fallible is a rather slippery slope to begin upon. But I know that this is God's intention because God is part of all of us. If we clear away things such as greed and materialism, and learn that we are all part of God, and that we all can be receptive toward him. The Jews used to speak of a part of the temple that only certain priests could enter, the holy of holies as they called it. I tell you that the holy of holies is not some temple that can be physiclaly reached, but it is within all of us. We are all able to commune with God on a very tangible and intimate level, but this commune won't come from any priest, but it will come from within ourselves. Therefore, that the Bible is fallible in certain parts, is not only possible, but it is essential to God's ultimate mission, bringing us closer to him. Complacently accepting what other people tell you will never result in a greater closeness to God. Actively seeking him out yourself will, however. And that is what God desires of us.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
How can you actively seek out something you don't have any evidence for? It seems like you are saying we all have evidence, so why don't we all see it? Shouldn't God know exactly how to best reach each and every individual? |
As far as the evidence that you ask for, God manfests himself quite clearly, given proper searching for him. It it not just a manifestation that requires large ammounts of faith. While faith is preferrable, God realizes that people need something concrete and tangible as well.
God does know what would be the absolute ideal circumstances for appearing to each person in this life, but part of our spiritual growth process is that we actively search for him ourselves. Rest assured however, that God will always help those out who wish to search for him. The truth is that we all know God quite well. We only forget him temporarily in this life so that we can become stronger and closer to him. It is like always just playing Civ III on cheiftain, you will never get any better without greater challenge, and part of the difficulty level that we face in this life is coming to terms with God by our own active pursuits. That is, only through realizing God in this life can these greater truths be realized, and therefore, by realizing the greater nature of things, that person have a greater impact on the world. That's not to say that atheist people have never done anything good, quite on the contrary of course. It is only that the very highest levels of greatness can only be reached through a realization of God.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:24
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ProVo H. - Whether you believe in him or not at present is mostly irrelevent, you will one day come to this conclusion. It is unfortunate that you don't come to this conclusion right now, but regardless you can still do a great deal of good for god, whether you realize it or not. Of course, God holds those of his children who may not have come a personal realization of him in this world but do much good for the world in much higher regard than those who have come to a realization of him, to one degree of another, and still actively practise evil. You ProVo H. have much less work ahead of you than some of the types such as Jerry Falwell, who seem to realize his existence and yet continually defy his will and generally make the world a much worse place.
Last edited by monkspider on 19-12-2002 at 03:25
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19-12-2002 02:09
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