18-12-2002 10:28									#1
	How can you not believe in evolution? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I just don't get it. I'm a catholic and I still accept it. In fact, christianity, the largest religion in the world, with over 3 billion believers, has no problem accepting it. 80% of Christians today accept evolution as a fact. There is so much evidence for it, and in fact we watch it. We watch bacteria evolve under a microscope. And look at humans. We're way taller than we were several hundred years ago. Also, what happened to dinosaurs? All the creationists I know say, "They died in the flood." Nice one. Now where did they live? We have fossils of dinosaurs in places where people have lived since the dawn of man, and, believe it or not, there are no records of people living with dinosaurs. Also, then what are neanderthals and all the other hominids? What are creatures that are a cross between a dog-like animal and a whale?

Of course, we could start a debate, I don't mind. I am only in 9th grade though, and the creationists who have a higher level of science education will probably get me on some stuff, but when that happens I'll just ask my science teacher and he'll give me answers, and the evolutionist believers will eventually win. The debates about this ended years ago.

I mean no harm, I repeat, no harm to creationists. I'm not trying to stamp out people's beliefs, I just want to know how they can believe them.

	18-12-2002 10:29									#2
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Oy.

	18-12-2002 10:58									#3
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Oy? Is that the best you can do?

	18-12-2002 10:59									#4
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My $0.02 on the matter:

Creationists build their belief on a variety of arguements that, while internally convincing (ie. they believe it themselves), do little to convince others of their beliefs.
Generally speaking there are two reasons IMHO for the belief in Creationism at the expense of Evolution (because you can believe in both a creation and evolution - what I am concerned with are those who believe in creation only and on that opinion, disbelieve evolution).
I ) "Its not in the Bible."
Because the Bible doesn't describe it they believe it could not and did not happen. Essentially this rational is for people who believe the Bible has all the answers, period. Evolution seems to challenge the idea that God created man and the animals in their perfect forms, and it is simply not possible for them to change.
II) "Evolution is a lie"
This is the belief of, in my opinion, improperly educated people who believe that evolution is a magical transformation in which species spontaneously grow legs and lose tails. They view this as a science-fiction and so they throw away the whole idea of it.

Note) The whole problem is really more concerned with creation than evolution. Evolution is an undeniable fact of the world, we can see it, measure it, and record it. Does this mean that the creation was caused by this? Hmm... that one is a bit tougher. It takes about as much faith to believe the a pool of amino acids spontaneously created life as it does to believe that God created it. I would say, most Americans at least believe in a degree of both. Most believers I've met would probably say even if the Amino acid pool did happen, God made it happen and that was creation.

All the Bible says in this matter (King James Edition)
"[26]And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them"

Most people will agree that isn't exactly a very accurate description of precisely how it happened.

For more info on this I recommend the play "Inherit The Wind" By J. Lawrence and R. Lee. The movie is pretty good too, if reading isn't your thing.

	18-12-2002 11:05									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Oy? Is that the best you can do?

I'm a bit burned out on debating at the moment -- earlier today I had somebody tell me that they refused to debate me because I might prove that they were wrong.

Oy vey. It's enough to drive me to drink.

	18-12-2002 11:26									#6
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You should be proud of yourself.

	18-12-2002 11:26									#7
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post before deletia

	18-12-2002 12:44									#8
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Back to the topic.

Creationists are few and far between. What's important is they don't have a coherent theory to explain all the evidence, without a lot of ad hoc hypotheses. Intelligent Design (ID) is just a variation on the same theme.

	18-12-2002 12:55									#9
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It's too bad that so many people oppose evolution on philosophical grounds. There really is no good reason to think that evolution mucks up any of the belief structures of the world's great religions. If these people who devote so much time to attempting to portray evolution as a sin would instead try to point out the various scientific inadequacies of evolution, we could have a much more thoughtful dialogue on the subject. Unfortunatly, both camps (the fundy religious folk, and the fundy evolutionists) are so mired in dogma that this won't be possible for a good while. So the same old song of the ivory tower intellecutals accepting evolution and the masses shunning it will probably continue until both sides learn to look at the subject with a much more open mind.

	18-12-2002 12:59									#10
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If evolution actually happens how can you explain I'm a homo erectus?

yes that is silly. Ming already closed 2 of these threads (1 due to exceeing 2 threads per day rule, the other because it was a copycat). I don't expect this one to remain open.

	18-12-2002 13:04									#11
	Re: How can you not believe in evolution? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod I just don't get it. I'm a catholic and I still accept it. In fact, christianity, the largest religion in the world, with over 3 billion believers, has no problem accepting it. 80% of Christians today accept evolution as a fact. There is so much evidence for it, and in fact we watch it. We watch bacteria evolve under a microscope. And look at humans. We're way taller than we were several hundred years ago. Also, what happened to dinosaurs? All the creationists I know say, "They died in the flood." Nice one. Now where did they live? We have fossils of dinosaurs in places where people have lived since the dawn of man, and, believe it or not, there are no records of people living with dinosaurs. Also, then what are neanderthals and all the other hominids? What are creatures that are a cross between a dog-like animal and a whale? Of course, we could start a debate, I don't mind. I am only in 9th grade though, and the creationists who have a higher level of science education will probably get me on some stuff, but when that happens I'll just ask my science teacher and he'll give me answers, and the evolutionist believers will eventually win. The debates about this ended years ago. I mean no harm, I repeat, no harm to creationists. I'm not trying to stamp out people's beliefs, I just want to know how they can believe them.

AFAIK, the Catholic Churches position is to accept science and to declare the contents of the Bible allegorical. In other words, the Church, I believe, has no hard and fast position on either side of this issue.

Am I wrong about the Church's position?

	18-12-2002 13:34									#12
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Why I not believe in evolution?
several reasons:

- the first cause argument.
- life is too comlex to occur/evolve on random change
- there are more recent exmples of degeneration than of evolutoin
- Evolution-believe works like a religion. I believe it because my father, my mother and my teacher told me so. And all smart people on the earth believe it, thus it must be true. Oh, and those smart people who do not believe in evolution are dumb anyway. (Check Urban Ranger's signature)
- The wish is the father of the thought (theory)
- Pure Evolutionists like UR / PH are fundamentalistic fanatics with superior feelings. Eventhough they feel that brilliant compared to silly creationists they spend half their life debating them. I never spent more than 5 minutes explaining a kid that santa doesn't exist. Either I should try harder to convince the kids or UR / PH must be religious freaks. (yeah, they hate this argument.)
- My common sence says it makes no sence. All this beauty on this earth appeared by random change? By usually damaging mutations? Nah....

And the argument that the roman catholic church accepted it....... they just flow with the mass.
In the middle ages the mass said that the earth was flat, so did the roman catholic church.
Now the mass says it all came through evolution, so says the RCC.

It's obviously that if the RCC says so, it's wrong

CyberShy (awaiting all those cool usual predictable reactions. yes, this reaction was predictable as well)

	18-12-2002 13:36									#13
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quote: If evolution actually happens how can you explain I'm a homo erectus?

Are you 'erectus' now?

	18-12-2002 13:36									#14
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Hey, I guess guys with Garfield avatars are less likely to fully accept evolutionary theories.

	18-12-2002 13:47									#15
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quote: We're way taller than we were several hundred years ago.

Yes we are. The reason in this example is not evolution, or atleast that what they told me.

	18-12-2002 14:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Yes we are. The reason in this example is not evolution, or atleast that what they told me.

we are taller due to better diet and healthcare.

	18-12-2002 14:53									#17
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Why I not believe in evolution? several reasons: - the first cause argument.

ROTFLMAO.

Really, evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe.

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy - life is too comlex to occur/evolve on random change

This is almost as bad. First of all, you are mixing up two issues. For the first one, abiogenesis, read my thread on the probability argument. As to the second point, evolution is not random. I am sure this has been pointed out to you before.

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy - there are more recent exmples of degeneration than of evolutoin

What is "degeneration?" Any cites?

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy - Evolution-believe works like a religion. I believe it because my father, my mother and my teacher told me so. And all smart people on the earth believe it, thus it must be true. Oh, and those smart people who do not believe in evolution are dumb anyway. (Check Urban Ranger's signature)

No it doesn't. Only Creationists portray it that way. Then again, it is not surprising considering there's nothing too low for them.

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy - The wish is the father of the thought (theory)

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy - Pure Evolutionists like UR / PH are fundamentalistic fanatics with superior feelings.

As I said, Creationists stoops to any depth - now demonising their opponents. Thanks for making my point.

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Eventhough they feel that brilliant compared to silly creationists they spend half their life debating them.

That's for the benefit of the audience, not for the Creationists themselves.

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I never spent more than 5 minutes explaining a kid that santa doesn't exist. Either I should try harder to convince the kids or UR / PH must be religious freaks. (yeah, they hate this argument.)

What argument? It is not an argument at all. Calling your opponents names is merely a fallacy.

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy - My common sence says it makes no sence. All this beauty on this earth appeared by random change? By usually damaging mutations? Nah....

How does your common sense make heads and tails out of Quantum Physics?

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy CyberShy (awaiting all those cool usual predictable reactions. yes, this reaction was predictable as well)

Just curious, why do you keep posting the same arguments dispite the fact that they have been repeatedly refuted?

	18-12-2002 15:54									#18
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Has anyone even condsidered what Adam and Eve's children were up to with each other ? Talk about keeping it in the family. And with the grandchildren. Oh man, it would be like something off Jerry Springer's show. I think that a few "random mutations" would be the least of that family's problems.

Sorry to lower the tone with this post, but this is a serious point. How is it possible that the entire human race of 5 or 6 billion people came from just one man and his wife?

Creationists should get real, fast.

-Jam

JCMcL - You rule

	18-12-2002 15:57									#19
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quote: Originally posted by War of Art Has anyone even condsidered what Adam and Eve's children were up to with each other ? Talk about keeping it in the family. And with the grandchildren. Oh man, it would be like something off Jerry Springer's show. I think that a few "random mutations" would be the least of that family's problems. Sorry to lower the tone with this post, but this is a serious point. How is it possible that the entire human race of 5 or 6 billion people came from just one man and his wife? Creationists should get real, fast. -Jam JCMcL - You rule

It was OK then just not now, I think you are having difficulty in comming to trems with the Bible contradiciting itself. You should go and talk to a priest he will tell you which bits to believe and which bits are just made up.

otherwise you might end up in hell

	18-12-2002 17:47									#20
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quote: and the creationists who have a higher level of science education

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

And where would you find these, pray tell?

*struggling hard to avoid splitting sides*

	18-12-2002 18:40									#21
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I had this huge fight back in highschool with a chick who beleived in adam and eve literally and that the world was no more than 6004 years old (or something). So like, dinosaur bones are God's big joke! @God

But seriously, Stinger, a frined of mine is studying to become a catholic priest and he is convinced of evolution. evolution is not so much a belief as some think or even a theory but fact, as can be seen by the galapagos islands and such other hard to get places. Whether WE have evolved from apes I suppose instead of from adam and eve I suppose you could argue, if you REALLY REALLY had nothing better to do.

I DO find it absolutely fvcking insane that schools in the US, even though they claim to be secular and not based on any specific religin, REFUSE, yes refuse to teach evolution. absolutely pathetic.

	18-12-2002 19:11									#22
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Most schools in the US teach evolution, albeit a very dumbed down version. Of course most everything taught in US schools (K-12) is a dumbed down version.

Very few people don't believe in some form of evolution. I don't think I've ever heard someone even try to refute that micro evolution happens, as it's quite evident that it does. There are still problems with the overall theory of evolution, still questions it doesn't answer, and that's where people get confused. They think scientific theory is meant to explain everything, when it is only meant to explain the evidence we currently have. People calling evolution (the overall theory) fact is another example of this misconception.

The other common misconception deals with statistics. As long as there is a probability that is not 0, it can happen. You roll a billion sided die, and one of the possibilities will happen, even though they are all 1 in a billion. This concept extends to any odds.

Then of course, if you truely believe in an omnipotent being, then anything is possible. As long as science is viewed from that standpoint, disbelief in anything is possible.

	18-12-2002 19:26									#23
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quote: ROTFLMAO. Really, evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe.

I know that.
The first cause argument shows to me that there must be more.....

quote: What is "degeneration?" Any cites?

sure, www.google.com: search for: degeneration.

quote: No it doesn't. Only Creationists portray it that way.

I'm not surprised that you say it isn't.
remember, you're one of the evolution-fanatics.

quote:

the wish gave birth to the theory.

quote: now demonising their opponents.

demonising? you've listened too much to the dutch politic news about demonising Pim Fortuyn.
Besides that, why is it 'the true' if it's said to me, but demonising if it's said to you?

quote: That's for the benefit of the audience, not for the Creationists themselves.

ah, it's all show.
That perfectly fits into the 'it's all religion' argument.

quote: What argument? It is not an argument at all. Calling your opponents names is merely a fallacy.

I didn't call you any name.
I raised a question. It's obvious that the answer should be that I should try harder to convince the kids that santa does not exist.

I don't understand why you chose the "I am a religious freak" answer. I would never say such a thing about myself.

Why do you concider yourself to be a religious freak?
Why don't you tell me that I should convince the kids?
I think you've compared christianity several times with believe in santa.

quote: How does your common sense make heads and tails out of Quantum Physics?

it's Interesting.

quote: Just curious, why do you keep posting the same arguments dispite the fact that they have been repeatedly refuted?

YOU THINk that you refuted me.
I think I refuted you. conclusion: we both claim to be right.

The utter cool thing is that you have such a superior feeling that you can't see that. You're not much different than the pope who banned Galileo.

But, to answer your question, I did not raise any ARGUMENT. The question was raised WHY I do not believe in evolution.
I just answered the question.

Of course I knew that a religous fanatic like you would jump on it. You're so predictable

	18-12-2002 19:28									#24
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quote: Has anyone even condsidered what Adam and Eve's children were up to with each other ?

brother / sisters who reproduce have the problem that damaged gens cannot be repaired because both partners have the same damaged gen.

In thsoe early days there were no broken gens.

	18-12-2002 19:33									#25
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If there were no 'broken' genes, and there is no mutation to cause evolution then how do you explain how the genes got 'broken'?

	18-12-2002 19:34									#26
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To believe in creation is to be completely illogical. Evolution has already been proven by fossil records and carbon dating. Matter of fact the world is much older than 6,000 years as most creationists say. Additionally to further discredit creationism, ice core drilling can show records for the past couple million years of the climate and weather, not to mention some fossils have even been discovered in the process.

Now can creationists shut up?

	18-12-2002 19:38									#27
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F*ck the Creationists by MC Hawking

	18-12-2002 19:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Fez To believe in creation is to be completely illogical. Evolution has already been proven by fossil records and carbon dating.

How does carbon dating prove evolution?

	18-12-2002 19:50									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin How does carbon dating prove evolution?

Well pardon my wording. It doesn't. It only disproves creation.

Well anyways, evolution has already been proven on the micro scale. And fossil records indicate evolution is true.

	18-12-2002 19:51									#30
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It makes people who think the earth is 6000 years old look pretty stupid, bu then again so do alot of things