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MikeH
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Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:24
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http://www.counterglow.com/forum/sh...=&threadid=9606
From his signature:
I might as well just save you all the trouble...
Ming is a bastard, Ming es un bastardo, Ming est un bâtard, Ming è un bastardo, Mingus bastardus est, Ming ist ein Mistkerl, Ming jest bêkartem, Ming är en horunge, Ming korcs, O Ming ine bastarthos, Ming on rakastajani...
and if you don't understand any of these... Ming. Bastard is he. yesssss.
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
lightblue, Well if that's a fact, why do they sell so good? Maybe people are scared after all..
And if we talk about responsible gun owners, sure they don't cause too much problems. They have it under control and they are rational adults. But what about the 'crazy' people?! |
I think it comes back to the frontier spirit again. In the UK if you wound or kill someone breaking into your property you go to jail, in the US you get away with it in general. So in the UK a gun is seen as less of a deterrent than in the US, seeing as using it would get you put in jail.
The "crazy" people will also get their guns, unless they fail their tests. Then you get the Columbine incidents. It is less likely to happen in the EU, but as Germany and Finland have proven over the last year, disgruntled teenagers with serious psychological problem can still get their hands on weapons and use them...
Last edited by lightblue on 19-12-2002 at 20:37
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:24
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I'd agree in large part with the lack of social services, but I think there is something else that Moore totally failed to address and/or got completely worng in Bowling for Columbine - the fundamental difference in attitudes between most Americans and people elsewhere (note I said most, there are clearly exceptions on both sides). America is a much more individualistic and greed driven society than much of the rest of the developed world. By this, I mean the highest priority in the US has been and is "how can I get the most for myself (or my family, whatever)". The US has this ingrained in their culture, education, constitution, everything. It's all about individual rights and liberties. Now, that's not to say that it's necessarily a bad thing, just that it's often taken to the extreme. And, along with this, often comes (rightly or wrongly) a certain measure of fear and paranoia that others will try to take what you have.
Personally, I think this explains alot about the rates of violence in the US. Inner city violence, while undoubtably linked to poverty and a lack of social services, is also fuelled by the fact that the greatest goal one can aspire to is personal wealth and power. The lure of criminal activity in these situations is so great because one can make more money and fame (infamy, really) at a much faster rate than attempting "honest" work.
This is also where, IMO, Moore was completely off in the movie. Sure, Germany, Japan, Britain et al have "violent" pasts, but much of this violence was institutionalized - ie. at a state level. Wars waged by governments between countries is not the same thing as internal violence. Hell, no one (or few, anyway) thinks that the US is a violent society because of the wars in which they have been involved. The fact is, in many other countries, there's much more of a feeling of a collective purpose. Again, though, I feel the need to state that we're not talking polar opposites here, and of course there are exceptions on both sides. It's just that, in general, the US leans further towards the supremacy of the individual.
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Wraith
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Austin, Texas, USA
Aug 1999
time: 23:24
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--"So what is it about your culture, that makes the US many times more violent than other countries (not including 3rd would etc countries)? You gave no reasons? "
You're right, I didn't. I'm no criminologist or sociologist, and I don't feel like giving lame, pat, oversimplified answers to extremely complex questions.
--"The only thing I see different with the US and other countries, is that other countries have more strict gun control..."
Thank you for proving my often-ignored point above.
Quite simply, you can't blame it on guns unless you ascribe to the "they exude an aura of evil" argument. Even excluding all the gun-related numbers the US is significantly more violent than other countries. This makes it seem obvious, to me anyway, that guns are at most a symptom but cannot be a cause.
And any international numbers comaprison is a shaky basis for establishing correlation, much less causation. There's just way too many variable to be accounted for, and I have yet to see a single one that attempts to control for even a significant majority of them.
Just as a for instance, Japan has much, much stricter gun control laws than the US, but much higher suicide rates. By your reasoning, gun control causes suicide, which is quite obviously not true.
--"They just kill each other."
This happens in the US as well. A large portion of our crime is related to drugs and/or gangs.
--"And the owner of a gun is responsible, and doesn't open the door with gun in his hand and knees shaking."
You know, I'm getting really tired of your condesending "every gun owner is a coward" line.
Wraith
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:24
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Hmm, the EU has serious drug problems too though. The support network might be better though, and as such addicts won't have to resort to violence. I think most gun crime in Britain is drug related (some might be people smuggling), largely between different groups of people trying to dominate the market. This does not explain why the homicide rate is so much higher in the US though, unless you take the avalaibilty issue into account.
I think the US it is far more "socially acceptable" to actually own and use a gun, whereas here you'd in general be looked at as if you were some kind of dangerous idiot.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wraith
--"The only thing I see different with the US and other countries, is that other countries have more strict gun control..."
Thank you for proving my often-ignored point above.
Quite simply, you can't blame it on guns unless you ascribe to the "they exude an aura of evil" argument. Even excluding all the gun-related numbers the US is significantly more violent than other countries. This makes it seem obvious, to me anyway, that guns are at most a symptom but cannot be a cause.
And any international numbers comaprison is a shaky basis for establishing correlation, much less causation. There's just way too many variable to be accounted for, and I have yet to see a single one that attempts to control for even a significant majority of them.
Just as a for instance, Japan has much, much stricter gun control laws than the US, but much higher suicide rates. By your reasoning, gun control causes suicide, which is quite obviously not true.
--"They just kill each other."
This happens in the US as well. A large portion of our crime is related to drugs and/or gangs.
--"And the owner of a gun is responsible, and doesn't open the door with gun in his hand and knees shaking."
You know, I'm getting really tired of your condesending "every gun owner is a coward" line.
Wraith
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke |
I think the guns are not the primary reason of violence, there are people holding the guns.. and the pull the trigger. I meant to discuss about why they do that, are so violent.. not so much about gun control, but I failed a bit. But I agree with you, they are symptoms, not the cause.
Not all gun owners are cowards.. but most of the people own guns because of possible attack? If so.. then they're afraid of being attacked? That doesn't mean they're cowards, just that they're scared of attackers. Right? And lots of shootings happen because someone got too scared and didn't have the 'courage' to not pull the trigger in hostile or threatning situation.
Wouldn't maze do the job, or pepper spray and a baseball bat? If someone breaks into your house with gun pointed to you, you're pretty much dead anyway? And if you get to surprise the robber, then a nice swing to the head with baseball bat would also do the job?
I don't mean to ***** about this, I'd much rather have a gun in this situation too, than pepper spray. I didn't mean to say that gun owners are cowards.
But it takes more courage not to own a gun  .
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Kontiki, that was covered too.. when they interviewed those Canadian kids. They made comparisons like 'Canada has lots of guns, yet low killing rate'.. |
The individualistic aspect of US culture wasn't covered at all in the movie. When Moore interviewed the kids in Sarnia (IIRC), the point was made that Canada has more social services and, in a more general sense, that the US is a more violent society. That's a given, but the kids certainly didn't give any reasons why that would be.
And for the record, yes we have lots of private guns in Canada, but not even close to the same amount or at the same per capita rate as the US does. However, I'm not arguing that the number of guns in the US is in any way solely responsible for the number of homicides. I think it is a contributing factor in some regard, but hardly addresses the whole issue.
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19-12-2002 20:22
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