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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:24
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Yeah yeah, I just saw 'Bowling for Columbine', a documentary by Michael Moore.. it was great in my opinion. Makes you think few things, even if you don't agree with its message.. anyone who haven't seen it, I recommend with my open heart. It was about gun control and school shootings etc.
So my question is: Why the US is such a violent place, with high murder rate etc? This seems very hard to understand for foreigner like me, so maybe you can chip in and throw some ideas around. I think it's valuable, because you have to understand the reasons to make it better.
The documentary had few good arguments, it's very entertaining and educational.
Please, try to avoid answers and arguments like 'you don't live in the US, so you have no clue'. You're right. I have no clue, why is it so violent towards others? This is what I want to know.
People in this documentary (Heston for example, main man in NRA) said the US has violent history.. that is very true, but so has Germany, Russia, Japan, Great Britain.. you name it. Also poverty was named one of the reasons. There are poverty in other western nations too, and the US is supposed to have the best economy. Still doesn't add. The violent movies, entertainment, rock music, everything was said there.. but other countries have it too, even more so. Japan is the main producer and consumer of highly violent games. Movies are watched everywhere in the world. So is rock music, and Germany really loves it, still neither of these countries have the same problem. Why is the US so much more violent?
There are tons of decent and responsible gun owners, yet so much violence and murders? Why?
My own theory is, that people are scared. They are scared that someone could rob you, even kill you. And you have to have a gun to defend yourself. That's fair.. but this chance is possible in other countries too, yet no problem. Maybe.. just maybe people are scared, because everyone has guns, so they have to get too, to not lose the situation because the opponent might have a gun too. So really what people are afraid of, are the guns. And that's why they get them. Scared people with guns.. is a bad bad bad thing, wouldn't you agree?
How can you reduce killings, if everyone has guns?!
Criminals have guns yes.. but that's why the police is there, right? Some woman said in the documentary, that you have to protect the home, because police can't do that. So when robberer breaks into your home, who do you call? The cops.. Why? Because they have guns. She said it's better to cut the middleman and get a gun to yourself. Isn't that almost the same as taking the justice to your own hands? Why even need police, if citizens already have guns, they can protect themselves, right?
If I have a problem with my toilet, I don't call the plummer, because he has the tools for it. I call him to fix the problem.
So you get a gun to protect yourself. From what? Do you know the threat? Or is it just some random dude, who might attack? That's scary. I'd hate to walk in the streets, and suspecting everyone who looks suspicious as a possible attacker, maybe even killer, and be ready to counter and have a gun fight. Or should I just make a special group for people to look out.. suspicious looking people.. perhaps black man? All I see in the news when I'm in states is black man killed, black man robber, black men had a gun fight, gangs fought and by standers where killed.. right? So scared if a black man is looking me, I mean they all have guns right and kill each other and decent white people.. right? So I get a gun because of fear of the black man, because the news says so. Or others, who I might be scared of for reasons unknown.
My post is not about bashing Americans, NRA or whatever. Just chip in and give your thoughts about this, and maybe throw some arguments too. I haven't personally decided my mind on this issue, so I'm not anti-anything.
And I end this post with a quote from the documentary 'If guns were to make place safer, then the US must be the safest country in the world'.
I'm just trying to understand. Why all the violence?
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Wraith
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Austin, Texas, USA
Aug 1999
time: 23:24
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--"So my question is: Why the US is such a violent place, with high murder rate etc?"
There isn't going to be any one reason, and from the sounds of things the bowling movie is pretty superficial in their coverage.
But, at the core, it's a cultural thing. Japan may play/produce a lot more violent video games (although I wouldn't put stuff like DDR on the violent side of things), but their culture is completly different.
You're never going to be able to tie it down to any one thing. There's too much history and interaction between various groups going on.
--"My own theory is, that people are scared."
My theory is that there are just a lot of *******s out there. This "everyone scared cause everyone has guns" argument is even more superficial than the ones it sounds like the movie is making.
--"How can you reduce killings, if everyone has guns?!"
You haven't been in these debates on the forums much, have you? Geeze, there's another thread just a bit down about this that's over four pages.
To be blunt, if the guy trying to do the killing is pretty damn sure his target is going to be shooting back, he's much less likely to try in the first place. And when someone else nearby could come to his targets aid in the same manner... well, it gets pretty risky for the would-be killer.
--"Criminals have guns yes.. but that's why the police is there, right?"
The police are there to catch criminals, not to prevent crimes. This is a common misconception. They can only do something after the fact, and they aren't everywhere at once (thank heavens).
--"For those saying the US isn't a more violent place than other countries:"
It is, but it doesn't have anything to do with guns. As gets pointed out often (and ignored just as often), even if you assume every gun related crime would not happen if guns were banned here we'd still be the most violent country by a large factor.
Wraith
"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters. I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun. Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins."
-- Sammy "the Bull" Gravano
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:24
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I think it might have something to do with the remnants of the "frontier spirit" where people defended their stakes with threats of violence. Also a large proportion of the violence will be in poor (as in below poverty line)inner city or rural communities, the likes of which neither Europe or Japan really posseses.
On a sidenote, gun crimes are on the rise in Britain now, mainly blamed on the "coolness" factor among certain groups (inner city youths mainly) of carrying a weapon, and that this obviously increases the chance of their misuse. A large part of the inner city gun related crime in the US might be related to this to. And as guns are far more easy to come by in the US than in Britain, there will be more inner city gun crime. I don't think that the suburban people with a pistol in their nightstand really have anything to do with the violence level.
Last edited by lightblue on 19-12-2002 at 18:54
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
And, there are poor and homeless people too in Europe. |
Far fewer and more well taken care of by the state I think.
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:24
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Edited it slightly, more guns = more gun crime.
As for poor people in Europe. Yes there are some but nowhere near the amounts there are in the US. Parts of US inner cities have equivalent earnings as Third World shanty towns. Combine that with what Paiktis mentioned about lack of social provisions, and you have an explosive mixture.
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Bereta_Eder
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Besides gun control and the social care system I think it also has to do with societal values, as lightblue hinted.
What are you prepared to do to achieve what you hold as one of the most important things to you?
Gun control, social care and societal values I think forge the three-fold center for less crime. (as proven actually between US and EU)
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JohnT
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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
So what is it about your culture, that makes the US many times more violent than other countries (not including 3rd would etc countries)? You gave no reasons?
The only thing I see different with the US and other countries, is that other countries have more strict gun control... what makes US more violent place to live than others? |
I wonder what the comparable statistics were for, say, 1890? 1920? 1950?
Look, the fact is that WW1 and WW2 beat the living **** out of you and after 1945 European civilization was weary: Tired of all the fighting, tired of guns and bullets, and most importantly, tired of all the responsibility and effort it took to maintain a global civilization which you had done for the past 500 years. So you got rid of it: the empires, the weapons, the pursuit of individual responsibility and economic competition, especially on a global scale. You retreated to lick your wounds, pacified (one minor step of which, is when you got rid of your guns), and re-evaluated the past.
One thing that stands out in latter European history is that y'all just EXPLODE into huge ideological or military conflicts every 100 or so years - 1517, 1618, 1701, 1789 (got started early with that one), 1914. From reading your (all Euro's, not just you Pekka) posts, it seems that a major effort has been expended to inculcate an ideology of international pacifism into you kids, and it's working pretty damned well. Y'all have no stomach for any decisive action that leads to bloodshed and tend to believe that most every conflict can be resolved by the mere passing of time and endless discussions - and what good are guns to the debate team?
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SlowwHand
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of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Yeah yeah, I just saw 'Bowling for Columbine', a documentary by Michael Moore.. it was great in my opinion. Makes you think few things, even if you don't agree with its message.. anyone who haven't seen it, I recommend with my open heart. It was about gun control and school shootings etc.
So my question is: Why the US is such a violent place, with high murder rate etc? This seems very hard to understand for foreigner like me, so maybe you can chip in and throw some ideas around. I think it's valuable, because you have to understand the reasons to make it better.
The documentary had few good arguments, it's very entertaining and educational.
Please, try to avoid answers and arguments like 'you don't live in the US, so you have no clue'. You're right. I have no clue, why is it so violent towards others? This is what I want to know.
People in this documentary (Heston for example, main man in NRA) said the US has violent history.. that is very true, but so has Germany, Russia, Japan, Great Britain.. you name it. Also poverty was named one of the reasons. There are poverty in other western nations too, and the US is supposed to have the best economy. Still doesn't add. The violent movies, entertainment, rock music, everything was said there.. but other countries have it too, even more so. Japan is the main producer and consumer of highly violent games. Movies are watched everywhere in the world. So is rock music, and Germany really loves it, still neither of these countries have the same problem. Why is the US so much more violent?
There are tons of decent and responsible gun owners, yet so much violence and murders? Why?
My own theory is, that people are scared. They are scared that someone could rob you, even kill you. And you have to have a gun to defend yourself. That's fair.. but this chance is possible in other countries too, yet no problem. Maybe.. just maybe people are scared, because everyone has guns, so they have to get too, to not lose the situation because the opponent might have a gun too. So really what people are afraid of, are the guns. And that's why they get them. Scared people with guns.. is a bad bad bad thing, wouldn't you agree?
How can you reduce killings, if everyone has guns?!
Criminals have guns yes.. but that's why the police is there, right? Some woman said in the documentary, that you have to protect the home, because police can't do that. So when robberer breaks into your home, who do you call? The cops.. Why? Because they have guns. She said it's better to cut the middleman and get a gun to yourself. Isn't that almost the same as taking the justice to your own hands? Why even need police, if citizens already have guns, they can protect themselves, right?
If I have a problem with my toilet, I don't call the plummer, because he has the tools for it. I call him to fix the problem.
So you get a gun to protect yourself. From what? Do you know the threat? Or is it just some random dude, who might attack? That's scary. I'd hate to walk in the streets, and suspecting everyone who looks suspicious as a possible attacker, maybe even killer, and be ready to counter and have a gun fight. Or should I just make a special group for people to look out.. suspicious looking people.. perhaps black man? All I see in the news when I'm in states is black man killed, black man robber, black men had a gun fight, gangs fought and by standers where killed.. right? So scared if a black man is looking me, I mean they all have guns right and kill each other and decent white people.. right? So I get a gun because of fear of the black man, because the news says so. Or others, who I might be scared of for reasons unknown.
My post is not about bashing Americans, NRA or whatever. Just chip in and give your thoughts about this, and maybe throw some arguments too. I haven't personally decided my mind on this issue, so I'm not anti-anything.
And I end this post with a quote from the documentary 'If guns were to make place safer, then the US must be the safest country in the world'.
I'm just trying to understand. Why all the violence? |
We try harder.
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