19-12-2002 23:43									#121
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quote: The lack of strong regulations in the US makes it worse, because almost anyone without criminal record can own a m16 or some other SMG. It is incredibly easier to kill a human with such things than with hunting rifles. Had the Americans very strict rules regarding gun ownership, with only low power guns being available to the citizens, there would be technically less killings, but their society would still be much more violent than any other developed country's one.

Spiffor

the average person can't buy an M-16, although they can buy an AR-15 which is the semi automatic version, also the M-16/AR-15 is a rifle not a smg, and if you get shot by a .308 hunting rifle with hollowtips you are in far more danger of dying from an equally placed shot than if you were shot by a .223 M-16 especially if it used military issue FMJ bullets

9mm handguns are relatively low powered when you compare them to other weapons but many crimes and many murders are committed with them, unless you said people couldn't buy anything stronger than .22LR you wouldn't be able to have any impact on crimes, and even a well placed 22 pistol can kill you (while if you were hit by a .50 cal mg and it was a really poorly placed shot you would probably live)

it's not the guns it's the people using them

	19-12-2002 23:44									#122
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Spiffor, to answer your question what I'd do if burgler hits my home.. I will kick his nuts in. And he is getting a new nose from my Easton bat. But that's possible here, because burglers don't have guns.. and I'm fairly big, strong and able to do some fighting, if I was small and not able to wrestle.. I'd go with golf stick.

I think we are also lucky, because burglers don't just come in peoples homes when they're in there..I don't know why that is. Maybe they are afraid of confrontation with the people inside, or something else.. but it just doesn't happen here. My mom, who lives in the states too btw, forgot to lock her door one day and voila, some guy came in. She was pretty scared, because the guy was big and was in her living room.. and she doesn't have any self defense equipment either (and is refusing to get one, even the baseball bat I'm bringing her anyway this january btw).. She was lucky that the man left when she told him to leave. Last time she forgot to lock the door, even when it was in the middle of the day.
It's something to get used to for sure. I worry about it often, fortunately my father is going back there.

	19-12-2002 23:48									#123
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Pekka

what if there were two or more robbers carrying knives then what would you do? what if you were smaller and older and not as able to physically beat a person down?

btw a robber is somebody who enters a house that people are in and doesn't care about confrontation, a burgler is a person who tries their very best to enter a house that people are not in, and if people are in it they try to leave unnoticed and they avoid confrontation

	19-12-2002 23:51									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar " Don't trust the opinion of someone who types like a drunken Longhorn."

Actually, I went to the University of Texas at Austin. I'm half wondering if I should feel insulted, or agree since I've seen other Longhorns in a drunken state.

(...and people wonder why I don't drink alcohol. Besides the taste.)

	19-12-2002 23:58									#125
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Ah ok, thanks for the info, now I'm wiser .
So we have burglers, but no robbers.. thank God.

If I had a gun, warn them about it. If I didn't have a gun, I'd get the hell out, and call the cops and cry 'white woman in trouble' so they'd get my house fast.. or 'officer down'. If they were unarmed, I'd still go at it. Running pure adrenalin and fury can get you long way ahead . If I had no chance, and possibility of getting killed, I'd just get out and call for help. Why risk your life for it? It's not like they can take your house..

What would you do if 3 robbers with uzis came to your house? Go at it with the old smith & wesson? .

I know you're saying that having a gun will increase your chances very much. And I'm NOT saying I wouldn't get a gun if I was living in there. I think I wouldn't.. but I like shooting targets, so maybe I just would, but not because of robbers.

	20-12-2002 00:00									#126
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But then again, many old and weak people couldn't get out of the house, they'd be pretty much in the mercy of the robbers. Like someone would even rob eldery people
...

	20-12-2002 00:02									#127
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 it's not the guns it's the people using them

Thx for pointing than only AR-15 can be bought by the normal citizen. I don't know how come a militiaman in Bowling for Columbine has a M-16. I guess he's simply boasting on his big gun, by using an impressive name.
Sorry to have said an assault rifle / SMG kills more easily than a hunting rifle. This probably must be true at long range (after all, the military use them for a reason), but I understand that hollow-point is more deadly at short range.

I agree the people using guns are the true culprits, and as I said, strong weapon regulations will affect the American violence marginally (because technically, without a gun, it's much more difficult to kill someone), but the US would still be much more violent than any civilized country. My point on gun ownership was "Guns do make violence more ugly, but they doesn't cause vioelnce in the first place". I seeked the true causes of violence in the American individualism and the implosion of the US in small communities

	20-12-2002 00:03									#128
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So basically what I'm saying is (phew, finally I'm answering your question) that I'd do fast calculation of my chances. How can I measure up against these thugs. I'd risk injury, but not possible death. Has to be matter of seconds, and then either attack or escape and call for help. With gun or without.

	20-12-2002 00:52									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Sinapus One might also look back at history approx 80 years ago. Something about a national ban on a certain drug, and the gang violence that sprang up as a result. Seems oddly familiar for some reason. (Also brings to mind the phrase "sometimes History doesn't repeat itself, sometimes she lets fly with a club and screams WHY DIDN'T YOU LISTEN LAST TIME?!)

That arguement might be valid if:

1) Every other counry that's ever had prohibition experienced the same level of violence as the United States

2) The United States were the only country in the world that has made drugs illegal. Living in Canada, I can tell you that we have the exact same laws regarding drugs (with perhaps recent exceptions being bantied about in Ontario about marijuana) as you do. I'm sure many other countries do as well.

	20-12-2002 01:01									#130
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--"f you don't give them a reason to think you are a danger, you might get out of it alive."

Don't have a reference handy, but I've seen a study that shows that people who resist are less likely to be injured, with it broken down by types of resistance (guns being the highest level, and the least likely to be hurt). I don't remember the conditions this applied to, though. I'll have to see if I can find it again.

--"Why is violence our culture?"

An interesting book that addresses something I happen to think is a (if not the main) root cause:

Less than Words can Say by Richard Mitchell.

--"I'd like to see a poll with this question"

Depends. If he's armed, then probably, although it depens on the weapon and the location. Like I mentioned before, guns are intimidating. They don't have to be used to be effective.

--" because almost anyone without criminal record can own a m16"

This has been addressed in several ways, but I am rather curious why this sort of myth sticks around.
And as far as lethality goes, military weapons are covered by the Geneva convention, which places some limits that aren't on weapons meant to, for instance, down bears and bucks.
Military weapons are often more about rate-of-fire than long-range accuracy (there are exceptions to this, of course, but the guy with the sniper rifle isn't going to be in your face).

Wraith
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand."
-- Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

	20-12-2002 01:03									#131
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Here's an interesting theory from Richard Nisbett:

quote: Culture of Honor shows that the U.S. South is more violent than the North. The greater violence is limited to situations where there has been an insult or a threat to home or property. Laboratory experiments show that southerners respond with more anger and greater increases in testosterone and cortisol levels when insulted than do northerners and surveys show they feel that violence is an appropriate response to insult or threat to property. Field experiments show that southerners are more accepting of other people who have killed to protect their honor than are northerners. This pattern of sensitivity to insults and threat is found in cultures throughout the world and is particularly common where there is a tradition of earning a living by keeping herds of animals. When this is the case, the individual risks the possibility of losing all his wealth by theft. A stance of toughness and unwillingness to brook any threat or insult is an effective way of making it clear that it would be unwise to steal from him. The U.S. South was founded mostly by herding peoples from Scotland and Ireland and the U.S. North was founded mostly by farming peoples from England, Holland and Germany.

	20-12-2002 01:03									#132
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I'd say the number three reason are:

1. The War on Drugs
2. Poverty
3. High population densities

quote: The United States were the only country in the world that has made drugs illegal. Living in Canada, I can tell you that we have the exact same laws regarding drugs (with perhaps recent exceptions being bantied about in Ontario about marijuana) as you do. I'm sure many other countries do as well.

Few countries persue the enforcement of these laws with the same fanaticism as the US. For instance, we have half a million non-violent drug offenders in our prisons. The US really is unusual in this regard, among developed states.

	20-12-2002 01:07									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I couldn't agree more. If I'd ever move to the US (or another nation where gun ownership is common), which isn't unthinkable, I would never allow a gun in my house either.

Be sure and say that as a guy with a gun goes through the stuff in your dresser drawer while you lay face down on the floor. I'm sure if you tell him firmly enough he will leave you alone.

	20-12-2002 01:11									#134
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Ramo, Just crossed my mind.. drugs are one big reason for guns and shootings.. even in here dealers and some addicts carry guns to off each other.

But the US is truly forcing these laws and punishing offenders hard. The penalties are hard in the US. Think about it.. you have let's say a kilo of cocaine. Or even much less.. now if you get caught, you can get life sentence (right?), so in order to protect yourself, you might have to kill some people.. and it wouldn't matter, because the penalties for lesser crimes are already so hard. If you think someone is ratting you out? Kill him.. you're spending your life in jail for the rest of your life anyway. If you suspect someone changing sides.. killing might come to mind.

	20-12-2002 01:31									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I'd say the number three reason are: 1. The War on Drugs 2. Poverty 3. High population densities Few countries persue the enforcement of these laws with the same fanaticism as the US. For instance, we have half a million non-violent drug offenders in our prisons. The US really is unusual in this regard, among developed states.

Hmm...according to the stats I found:
http://www.cjcj.org/pubs/one_millio...illionexec.html
in 1996, there were 114,000 and change people in US jails for drug offenses. I find it hard to believe that number's nearly quintupled in six years. During that same year, there were about 1.8 million total people in US prisons, so that would make the drug offense percentage about 6.3%. In Canada, approximately 9% of our prisoners are there for drug-related charges
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00/n1385/a08.html?152

	20-12-2002 01:34									#136
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1.8 million?!! omg.. I knew it was a lot.. but.. I'm pretty much out of words right now. I need to go to sleep, nighty night.

... 1.8 million..

	20-12-2002 01:35									#137
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Would you mind quoting the relevant passages? I can't find them...

	20-12-2002 01:42									#138
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Sure.

from the first link:

quote: According to data collected by the United States Justice Department, from 1978 to 1996...the number of drug offenders increased seven-fold (from 14,241 to 114,071 inmates).

and:

quote: The Justice Department recently released data showing that the number of prisoners in America rose to 1.8 million last year, the highest level ever, and the second largest prison population in the world.

My mistake, I think the total prison population figure is from 1998, so the percentage would probably be a little higher in the US.

from the second:

quote: And the guards needed to watch over the nine per cent of Canadian prisoners behind bars for drug crimes.

	20-12-2002 01:45									#139
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Actually, the current US prison population is close to 2 million.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/D...sons000420.html

	20-12-2002 01:49									#140
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Ramo, I wonder if this is what you were thinking of:

quote: About 25 percent were on probation for a drug law violation and 18 percent for driving while intoxicated.

from: http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/08/25/jail.stats/

of course, there are about 4.6 million people under probation (from the same source).

	20-12-2002 01:54									#141
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Allow me to quote the entire passage:

quote: Contrary to the public perception that the incarceration of violent offenders has driven America's prison growth, the Institute found that 77% of the growth in intake to America's state and federal prisons between 1978 and 1996 was accounted for by nonviolent offenders. According to data collected by the United States Justice Department, from 1978 to 1996, the number of violent offenders entering our nation's prisons doubled (from 43,733 to 98,672 inmates); the number of nonviolent offenders tripled (from 83,721 to 261,796 inmates) and the number of drug offenders increased seven-fold (from 14,241 to 114,071 inmates). Justice Department surveys show that 52.7% of state prison inmates, 73.7% of jail inmates, and 87.6% of federal inmates were imprisoned for offenses which involved neither harm, nor the threat of harm, to a victim. Based on this data, we estimate that by the end of 1998, there were 440,088 nonviolent jail inmates, 639,280 nonviolent state prison inmates, and 106,090 nonviolent federal prisoners locked up in America, for a total 1,185,458 nonviolent prisoners.

The key word there is entering. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense. Since, by definition, there are only violent and non-violent prisoners among prisoners. Your interpretation implies that there are only 360,000 prisoners in the US.

Note that entering is implied in the sentences following violent prisoners. Otherwise it contradicts itself by saying there are 1.1 million and 260 thousand prisoners at the same time.

quote: And the guards needed to watch over the nine per cent of Canadian prisoners behind bars for drug crimes

While in the US, it's closer to 50%...

	20-12-2002 01:56									#142
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Hmm that's a lot, but on how much inhabitants? How many ppl are there in the US nowadays btw? they always say 250 million, but i'm sure it must have been risen by now...


As a sidenote: Belgium has about 8000-9000 prisoners on a population of 10 million, and quite a few of them are foreigners or ppl that are now Belgian but still originate from another country (they mainly do crimes because they are poor, or sometimes, because they're simply evil)

2 million is ... much

Btw don't you have a military of 2 million as well or something? so basically you have as much prisonars as soldiers.. which is funny

	20-12-2002 02:04									#143
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Ramo:

Whoops - my bad. I skimmed that article way too fast, apparently.

I'm still not so sure you can say that the number one cause of violence in US society is the war on drugs, though.

	20-12-2002 02:13									#144
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There are 283 million Americans. And we are armed. Don't **** with us.