28-02-2003 22:26									#91
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From BetaHound, responding to the message above.

quote: Good point. I will add it. I had drafted an agreement which I will finalize today and send to you for comments. I am interested in what Trip is saying and how it differs from what we have been talking about. I am concerned with him trying to play one of us off against the other.

	01-03-2003 07:43									#92
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From BetaHound:

quote: Hi nathan. I took a shot at drafting up the points of our recent agreement. I think there wre a few things you wanted added - one unit in Lux's territory, etc. I am working on a stripped down version for Lux. Will send that in the next PM. Let me know if this is OK. Thanks ... Beta. GS and Vox agree to the following: 1. 75 gold immediately to GS from Vox 2. Vox gives writing to Lux immediately. 3. Lux starts paying Vox 2 gold per turn for 20 turns. 4. GS completes a deal with Gow to obtain map making for code of laws and 30 gold. 5. GS gives map making to Vox. Vox pays GS 15 gold when this deal is done. 6. Vox gives map making to Lux. 7. Lux gives its world map to both Vox and GS when it gets map making. 8. Lux gives construction to Vox when it is done. 9 Vox gives construction to GS when recieved. 10 Vox agrees to sit on Philosophy for awhile to delay the continental civs timing towards the republic. 11 GS researches The Republic next and gives it to Vox. 12. Vox will start research on an agreed-upon tech. 13. GS will not trade the republic to other civs. Nor will Vox. 14. This deal is non-negotiable by Lux.

	01-03-2003 07:43									#93
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Another from BetaHound:

quote: Hello again. This is what I propose Lux agree to - signed by GS and Vox. let me knw if you are on-side. I want to get this off to Trip asap. Thanks ... Beta. Lux, GS and Vox agree to the following: 1. Vox gives writing to Lux immediately. 2. Lux starts pays Vox 2 gold per turn for 20 turns. 3. Vox gives map making to Lux when it is available. 4. Lux gives its world map to both Vox and GS when it gets map making. 5. Lux gives construction to Vox when it is done. 6. This deal is non-negotiable by Lux. This agreement does not negate or replace Lux's obligations under the previous accord agreed-to by Lux and Vox, the Portia Accord. This agreement does not negate or replace any agreements or stipulations in place between Lux and Gs or Vox regarding unit movement and placement.

	01-03-2003 07:46									#94
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Another:

quote: Hi nathan. Sorry for the deluge of PM's. But we should discuss something else. We got a letter from GoW announcing they would have map making in 5 turns and asking if we wanted to start working on a trade for it. Which on the one hand is good news. It would suggest that the arrangements regarding our tech trading relationship are not public knowledge. This can only work to our advantage. This may have been helped by us not yet having passed on Horseback Riding. GoW would be able to see this - so they must figure that we have not been able to reach an agreement with you yet. And that brings us to how we best keep up this image for the rest of the world. It would seem to be in our best interest to do so. It means that civs are not as reluctant to deal with one or the other of us - as they figure they can get a deal with the other. It may actually lower the cost at which we obtain techs. As long as we are not constantly dealing with the same civ, either from our side, or from the continent, they will probably not figure out the arrangement. And my suspicion is that there is no such unified trading relationship on the continent - it would appear to be an open market so to speak. Which means we benefit from trading with them. So - what do you propose we say in response to GoW that maintains the image we are looking for. I suspect we can stall by saying our research rate is very slow - partially true (although it is slated for considerable improvement in the near future). And therefore we cannot propose any trades at this time. We discussed Vox sitting on Philosophy for a period of time to force the others to research it. This makes good sense. But we should keep our eyes open if someone else hits the market with it. We should then try and get something for it. Anyways - any thoughts on our collective marketing and communications strategy? Also, any thoughts on Vox's next research path. Currency? Also, the new patch for PTW is out (1.21). One of the changes is to make the random tech received by a scientific civ entering a new era, well, random. Before it was fixed. We would get Monotheism. And so would Lux. Which cuts into the value of the agreement we made with them as we will likely beat them to the new era. The new fix may help considerably - if it is implemented for this game. Regards - Beta.

And another:

quote: Just played our 1450bc turn. Philosophy in 5. And I still may be able to get a turn off of that, as I said earlier. Regarding my last message - I was approached by RolepLay when we got the save asking if we were interested in literature. May I suggest I negotiate with them for a trade involving Literature for Code of Laws. This would mean we get two techs for Code Of Laws. Now - I suspect GoW is already out trying to sell your Code of Laws, and I may need to pitch in some gold to make the deal with RP. But that would still be worth it to the alliance. Comments? Suggestions? Also - have you approached Neu D regarding any trades for Code of Laws, or should I. It might be Ok if we both did - spread some doubt around that we are working as one trading block. Cheers - and good night ... Beta.

	01-03-2003 07:55									#95
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Response to Vox:

quote: We've already lined up deals with both RolePlay and GoW. We've been trying to negotiate a deal with ND as well (wanting to trade to all three teams at once to minimize the risk that one might get Code of Laws from another), but they didn't have anything different to offer tech-wise and haven't responded to our inquiries about possible interest in a gold deal yet. Your other messages are going to give us some stuff to think about for the next day or two. We'll try not to take too long. Nathan

	02-03-2003 05:20									#96
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This came in this morning (March 1, U.S. time) but I'd been up all night and was too tired to deal with it then.

quote: Hi Nathan. Thanks for your note. Can you answer a couple of questions before you do your day or two ofthinking - or is that part of it? I would like to get back to some of the folks who have contacted us. I gather the roleplay deal is literature for code of laws. Correct? In which case we will engage them in a discussion, but not give anything away, Are we still in agreement that we sit on philosophy for awhile? And - Trip is restless to chat - as he always is - so I would like to give him as soon as I can the deal we discussed - as outlined in my second message of yesterday. Cheers - Beta.

	02-03-2003 05:43									#97
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Response to Beta:

quote: The deal with RolePlay is a straight Code of Laws for Literature transaction. For the moment, the plan is for you to sit on Philosophy, but that's still a matter that requires further thought and discussion. Regarding Republic, it may make a huge amount of sense to sell/trade it as a time when someone else is likely to get the tech approaches, but we do still want to try to set up a window where the two of us are the only ones who have it. We just had a situation develop with GoW. GhengisFarb had previously indicated that they were going to accept our proposed deal for Map Making, but now they're trying to add strings. (Sound familiar?) One of the things they want is a ten-turn "no tech whoring" provision. Would you be willing to accept a ten-turn delay between the time we get Map Making and the time we pass it on to you in the interest of trying to mask our relationship? (If they trade it to us and then you have it immediately after, they will certainly view it as a violation of the agreement whatever technical excuses we might make to try to rationalize our actions.) Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, but I'd been up all night and was a bit too tired for complex diplomatic matters when I got your message this morning. And unfortunately, the trade situation is diverting too much attention from the Lux situation for us to have gotten a lot farther considering that. Speaking of the Lux situation, GoW now has suspicions that they've relocated to our continent, but indicate that they aren't interested in chasing after them. Nathan

	02-03-2003 08:51									#98
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From BetaHound:

quote: Hi nathan. I understand about the delay. I too had some serious RL stuff this week that pre-occupied me. Take care. Two points. First - when is the map making trade going to occur? If it is shortly- as in the next turn or two - then 10 turns would be OK. We will need to cover our tracks about what we have to trade. Secondly - Lux is being a pain. I esplained the basics of the deal we had lined up for Lux to Lux - I thought they would be appreciative. Instead, they have come up with another deal for map making - presumably GoW, and want some of their gold back to purchase it. Jon and I are in agreement that we tell them the deal on the table is non-negotiable. If need be - our spearman will take back the city and we can put our Mother Theresa aspirations behind us. Will keep you posted - and will confirm quicjkly the above 120 turn wait on map making. Cheers ... Beta.

I assume he meant "12" rather than "120" there at the end.

	02-03-2003 09:11									#99
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Edit: I canceled the message that had occupied this slot in the log before it reached BetaHound.

Last edited by nbarclay on 02-03-2003 at 13:36

	02-03-2003 14:06									#100
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Another message from BetaHound:

quote: Nathan - we have had to write a very stern letter to Lux Invicta. They wanted 40 of their gold back to obtian map making from another source (either GoW, or maybe RP who would obtain it from GoW). Our note says, quite accurately, that we have had to forward a large part of "their" gold reserves to GS to keep the peace on the continent, and ensure their survival. We have also 'advised' them against dealing with the continental civs for writing and map making, which will be provided to them eventually. Patience is wearing thin on our side. I await his response. It is difficult to imagine that 3 turns ago they were essentially begging for survival. I also sent it to BFM in the hope that reason will prevail. ..sigh.. a despondent Mother Theresa (aka BetaHound)

	02-03-2003 14:10									#101
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Response to BetaHound:

quote: I just had a chat with Trip trying to clear up a couple points, and I think it will be possible to do business without getting nasty. His main goal for the moment is to keep from getting left totally behind in the tech race, and it occurs to me that it may actually be in our best interest to accommodate him - especially with Lux being a scientific civ and the 1.21 patch out now. A good diplomat tries to avoid using an iron fist when a velvet glove will suffice (or perhaps a velvet glove with an iron fist inside it). According to Trip, Construction was not part of your original deal with Lux, and the text I have of the Portia Accord seems to bear that out. It's only natural that Trip be upset at having you make new demands (both Construction and additional gold) and offer nothing in return, and the fact that he had an elaborate trading scheme in mind to try to keep in the tech race makes matters worse for him. But we/you could provide Lux with techs of comparable value in return for Construction without its really costing us anything (assuming we end up deciding it's in our best interest to get Construction from Lux rather than elsewhere), and maybe also arrange things so the 2 gpt you want comes as part of a tech sale rather than as pure extortion. Indeed, making it part of a tech sale might get us more gold than that. And we need Lux to keep within shouting distance in the tech race in the ancient era if we want them to get their free medieval tech in time for it to be of any use to us if it's different from yours. (That's where the new patch plays an important role.) If you'll let me work on it, I'll see if I can come up with an arrangement that Trip will accept for more reason than just that a spear is being held to his head, and that won't cost us anything of importance in the process. Then I get to try to sell it both to you and to Gathering Storm. Regarding Map Making, I'm suggesting that we put the "no tech whoring" deal in terms of 10 turns after we get Map Making or 15 turns after they get Code of Laws, whichever is earlier. That's a little over the 12 turns you had in mind, but not much. I hope that will be okay with you if it's what we end up with. Nathan

	05-03-2003 00:01									#102
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New message from BetaHound.

quote: Hi Nathan. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Jon and I and the team had to discuss the Lux situation at some length. As you can tell, despite the Voxian love of the outdoors and travel, we were not happy campers. My recent letter to Trip probably best explained why. However, we have since had some heart-to-heart conversations with trip, and we seem to have all gotten back on the same page, and the mood here has improved considerably. We acknowledge that Lux cannot be technologically and economically crippled to the point where they would not be a usefull ally. Indeed, our original intent with Lux was that this would not be the case. It was part of the earlier discussions when we originally extended the olive leaf and the lifeline to Lux. Trip has explained his trading plans to us. We are on-side. However, we do need to discuss the matter of the 40 gold. What seems to be missing in many of these discussions is the expense and risk, in real game terms, that Vox is incurring to save Lux from extinction. That being said, we are willing to, and have already forwarded to Lux, 20 gold from our half of their monetary reserves. We are asking that on your turn you forward 20 gold to Lux from your half of the reserves. I hope that you can see the logic and the benefit to GS of doing this. You will have netted 55 gold, plus the benefit of the future techs we receive from Lux under the Portia Accord, given the current tech trading arrangement between ourselves. This is the same benefit we receive, with Vox also incurring the opportunity costs associated with Portia. As part of this arrangement, we will likely get map making earlier than under the GS-GoW arrangement. We will be getting it via Lux, if they can swing it. I hope you understand why it is in both our best interests for Vox to get galleys as soon as possible. Expansion in another direction will take pressure off our continent, as we discussed when reaching the border agreement. This also eliminates any pressure on both of us regarding the 10 turn restriction. By the way, GoW approached us again today about trading for map making. Any suggestions as to a response? I suspect we tell them that we are a long way to having anything to trade. Which, if we sit on Philosophy as planned, will appear to be the case. Regarding philosophy, four turns to go, three after this last turn. And, we may still be able to shave one turn off that. In conclusion, please feel free to chat with Trip about any or all of this. And thanks for helping out to the extent that you have. My guess is that you see this the same way we do, in that if we can make a game-long ally out of Lux, then the technology and future support would flow to both of us. Regards .... Beta.

	05-03-2003 00:04									#103
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My message back to clarify a point:

quote: Have you verified with Trip that GoW is willing to sell them Map Making without a promise from them not to pass it on to others? Nathan

	06-03-2003 13:05									#104
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Message back from BetaHound. (This communication occurred prior to Vox's decision to destroy Lux.)

quote: Hi nathan. Yes - I will check. I'm not sure why GoW would put the restriction on you, and not on Lux. Also, I think GoW's patience is wearing thin. ...Beta.

	06-03-2003 13:06									#105
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Message informing us of Lux's demise.

quote: Hi Nathan. You may have read it already, but Vox Controli made a decision this evening to take back Portia, thus eliminating Lux Invicta. We can talk at greater length later, but right now I am kind of worn out. It was not a decision we took lightly, but the situation was indeed becoming untenable for us. Trip and Lux were quite a handful, and a number of things were not playing out well in the international arena, courtesy of them. I am somewhat saddened by it. It is only a game, but it is unfortunate for one team to exit so early. Ah - the value of diplomacy. If it had worked, it would have been interesting to see if they could have come back. You should also know that the decision was unanimous at our end. There is an announcement in the public forum. That will be our only public comment on the matter. We have some fence-mending to be done, and I will need to talk to you further about the GoW and map making situation. A couple of other things - I was able to get philosophy down another turn through some tweaking and prioritizing - now 2 turns remaining. And any thoughts on what we should plan on reseraching next. We should compare notes about what the other civs are doing. And oh yes - RolePlay offered us literature this turn. We need to discuss both RP and GoW and how we keep them from getting wind of, and getting upset with, our trading relationship. We have not mentioned philosophy to anyone at this point in time. Regards - from a sombre Beta.

	06-03-2003 13:29									#106
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Message to Vox regarding Literature and Horseback Riding:

quote: Greetings, Literature is on its way; it's up to you whether you want to get it now or later. One thing we've been thinking is that if you would send us back Horseback Riding right after we send you Literature (so the gifts look like a single trade deal from an outside perspective), it would look to anyone who is watching (and able to watch) as if we made some sort of deal involving Literature and Horseback Riding. That might cause problems if GoW catches the arrangement and regards its expctation for you not to sell Horseback Riding as still in effect after all this time, but at least it doesn't leave the appearance of techs flowing every which way as gifts between us. If you think that sounds like a good way to handle things, please send us back Horseback Riding when your turn comes. (We're starting to get tired of GoW's pestering us to buy Horseback Riding from them.) If GoW specified a particular time limit on your not selling Horseback Riding, though, we probably ought to abide by it. Nathan

	07-03-2003 01:48									#107
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Response to my message above:

quote: Greetings to you as well, Nathan. I think the Literature and Horseback riding deal works well. We are in no great hurry for literature, so we can wait a few more turns to further obfuscate things. Gow did not put a time limit on the no-trade matter. They wanted a chance to negotiate directly with you - which from the sounds of it, they have had a couple of chances to do. But we can wait a bit longer. Regarding GoW, I am recommending that we buy MapMaking from them for cash. I suspect I can get it 40 gold, maybe a bit more. This has several advantages. The first and most important to both of us in the long term is that it will further camouflage our tech agreement. Secondly, it gets us around the no-trade time limit, which is not part of our treaty, but which is being imposed by GoW. And thirdly, from Vox's perspective, it will do a little fence mending with GoW after certain issues arose regarding dealings with Lux. May I also suggest that as we both have a stake in this, that GS contribute 20 gold to this purchase. I know I had recommended that you forward 20 gold to Lux as part of the previouslly proposed agreement. If you did in fact forward it, then the smallish treasury we obtained from Portia would have included it. If not, may I ask that you consider the merits in sharing a part of this purchase. Incidentally - when GoW asked about trading techs, we told them that we had major indecision in techs, had to restart research, and are a long way from completing anything. You are the only ones who are aware that we are researching philosophy, and that it is almost done. And again - we need to discuss what would be in the alliance's best interests for Vox to research next. The international fall-out from the demise of Lux has been limited, and the reporting very balanced. Vox is relieved to get on with 'normal' business. The last few days have not been happy ones at Vox. Trust all is well with you and the GS team. Regards .... Beta.

	07-03-2003 07:41									#108
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Message from Beta mostly regarding what to research next:

quote: Hi nathan. Just a confirmation that we have 1 turn to go to Philosophy. We will need a new research path next turn. Construction - Currency - or Polytheism? Any idea who is researching what on the continent? GoW is finishing map making - that is all we know. ... Beta.

	08-03-2003 02:40									#109
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Message to Vox:

quote: Greetings, We have a clue from Trip that someone is researching Construction, but we don't really know otherwise. I think at the moment, GS is leaning in the direction of thinking Polytheism might be a good choice, if only because with your relatively low research speed, it's something you could get in a reasonable amount of time. (No offense intended; just realistic evaluation.) Also, it occurs to me that there's a chance all three Bobian civs mght neglect Polytheism since it doesn't really do anything directly, leading to a possibility of a trade without having to give up Republic. If we come up with any other thoughts before you play your turn, we'll let you know, but I wanted to go ahead and make sure you have our current thougts now. Oh, and whoever sent Horseback Riding last turn forgot to click Accept before sending it. Please don't forget with Philosophy or it will mean a one-turn delay for Republic! Nathan

	08-03-2003 07:23									#110
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Message from BetaHound:

quote: Hi nathan. Accepted horsback riding. And I would have sent on Philosophy but we still have one turn to go. My apologies. I replayed my previous turn to see what happened. It says one turn to go, I was doing some tinkering, and checking back to make sure it was still one turn - but I didn't check back after the last adjustment - 2 turns. AAARrrgh. My humble apologies. It has not been a good week. I'm sure we try your patience as an ally, sometimes. You have to believe me when I say this is not intentional. Maybe we should have spread out some of those strategy forum players onto the other teams. I am learning to be a more 'technical' player, but I still make mistakes. Sorry about this. BTW - RolePlay is giving us grief over the literature trade. They gave us grief previously regarding Lux. As did GoW. And we have made our cash offer - 40 gold - to GoW for map making. Again - my apologies. I know this error cost both our teams. Regards - Beta.

	09-03-2003 04:03									#111
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Messages from BetaHound:

quote: Hi nathan - GoW is making some very unreasonable demands regarding Map Making. Are you Ok with us offering them literature as part of a trade, or were there strings attached to your trade with RP. RP is giving us grief about trading with you for literature by the way. ...Beta.

And a few hours later

quote: Hi nathan - philosophy was offered and accepted. We have started Polytheism. We may have reached agreement with GoW for map making. Not sure yet. Will keep you posted. ... Beta.

	09-03-2003 04:54									#112
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My reply to BetaHound:

quote: No strings were attached to our Literature deal with RP, so it's up to you how you want to handle it. Good luck with your diplomatic juggling act. Nathan.

	10-03-2003 05:57									#113
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From BetaHound:

quote: Good morning nathan. Some interesting news for you and GS. First - GoW inexplicably gave in on the map making trade and agreed to trade it for 40 gold, after their initia unreasonable demands. We will proceed with this. I ask you to consider again about sharing in the cost of this transaction, given its benefit to the partnership. Secondly - GoW has asked us what we would be willing to trade for philosophy and contact with Legoland. The first point would indicate that another civ has researhed philosophy, or they may want us to believe that so we wil then try to market ours for a cheaper price. Any thoughts? The Legoland contact I expected. A Lego galley is on its way up the north side of the continent Bob, from what I can surmise in my recent discussions with Lego. I don't think it is worth giving up much in retrurn for this contact. they will meet Vox soon enough, and then we will both have contact. I have also impressed upon the Legolanders not to get 'burnt' in any early trades with the first civ they meet, by paying too high a price for a tech which is readily avaialble to the rest of us. They understand the logic. Also - Neu D is giving us grief over harboring Lux, and we may have some fence mending to do their. Their main issue is the cost of the war to them, with no return. Trust all is well with you - take care. ... Beta.

And from Jon a little while later:

quote: Lego has philosphy and gave it to GoW since we don't have that advantage, we would like to try and outsell GoW so as to get more trades for GS/Vox Jon Miller

	10-03-2003 07:19									#114
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My response to Jon:

quote: Go for it, and good luck! Sorry about not getting back to you more quickly. Nathan

	14-03-2003 22:55									#115
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New message from Jun Miller:

quote: Hey GS we are currently researching poly we are tryingto work out some trade deals for it in advance (Which is neccesary, see below for reason) we were wondering if you would split the costs of mapmakingw ith us (20 gold) lego is coming down, we will soon pass you contact with them we do have a slight problem though bascially all 3 teams on the continent are researching our 3 possibilities (construction, currency, and polytheism), and we are starting later than them, so I am unsure if we can beat them (Although our tech speed is similiar to a couple of them) that is the reason we are trying to work out a trade in advance Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 02:08									#116
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Our proposal: revising tech partnership:

quote: Respected BetaHound of Vox Controli. Greetings from the Gathering Storm. I bring you this offer, a revision of our current tech sharing arrangement. You have already brought up this idea to Shiber in a chat you had, so I’ll go straight into the deatails: 1) The treaty lasts for a period of 20 turns. 2) in that period of 20 turns, VC gives the GS 12gpt. 3) The GS shares with VC the techs they have researched or have purchased, as soon as the GS acquires the techs, as long as these do not fall under a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with other teams, in which the GS has agreed not to trade these techs onwards. 4) Out of all the techs given to by the GS in the 20 turn period, Republic, Currency and Construction will be for VC use only- and will not be traded by VC to any other team. 5) VC will share with the GS it’s free medieval technology. 6) The treaty can be renegotiated after a period of 20 turns. I consider this arrangement to suit the current developing situation better than the one we’ve had so far and hope you find it acceptable. Please try to reply as soon as possible Cordially Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	25-03-2003 04:45									#117
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This is really minor:

in 1, "in" should be capitalized.

In 5, it's "its."

Let's send it.

[Edit: Sorry, wrong place to post, and I can't delete it]

Last edited by Theseus on 25-03-2003 at 05:29

	25-03-2003 11:07									#118
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I just had a chat with Jon, most urgently about the tech deal but also about the situation between Vox and the Bobians. Two main points:

1) Vox doesn't like our proposal because it's a short-term deal with little in the way of guarantees for what they'll get out of it. Frankly, I agree with them. They might come out of it pretty well, but can they be sure they will be better off dealing with us than they would trading their medieval tech for Republic+Currency+Construction+gold to various other teams? I'm skeptical. Keep in mind also that the medieval tech will be a monopoly for Vox, while Republic, Currency, and Construction will be devalued due to wider availability.

2) In case others have missed it (as I had until Jon called it to my attention), there is serious saber rattling in the public PtW DemoGame forum between Vox and the Bobians over Vox's wanting to expand (and maybe already having expanded) onto Bob. Incidentally, that may very well explain the iron colony if Vox doesn't have a closer source of iron: trying to expand onto Bob without immortals would be a bit on the suicidal side. (And if they're expanding in a direction with low corruption, a colony in a place where a city would be essentially totally corrupt may actually make a lot of sense.) I deliberately avoided bringing up GoW's accusations with Jon and tipping Vox off that we've been warned, but we have to consider whether GoW might have an ulterior motive in trying to stir up trouble for Vox with less-than-objective reporting.

Here's the full transcript. (Jon's "I understand" was a response to a PM where I agreed to the chat but warned Jon that I haven't been keeping up much with the diplomatic stuff lately.)

quote: [22:39] [ Jon_Miller > I understand [22:39] [ Jon_Miller > I spent all my sat trying to keep Vox from war [22:39] [ nbarclay > Keep Vox from war? [22:40] [ Jon_Miller > with ND, GoW, and RP [22:40] [ Jon_Miller > still got to struggle with that [22:40] [ nbarclay > Is Vox really equipped for war? [22:40] [ Jon_Miller > fortunatly matters with you are easier [22:40] [ Jon_Miller > Vox? [22:40] [ Jon_Miller > yes, I think [22:41] [ Jon_Miller > (we have heard tales of 6 swordsmen comming to attack us, we match that) [22:41] [ Jon_Miller > they aren't near us, it is easier to defend [22:41] [ Jon_Miller > that is the reason why we are pissed off, they are angry about us setlling open land [22:41] [ Jon_Miller > anyways [22:41] [ Jon_Miller > other matters [22:42] [ Jon_Miller > one thing, we spent 40 for mapmaking [22:42] [ Jon_Miller > we were wondering if you could cover half, as we have been doing (send 20 our way) [22:43] [ nbarclay > So far, the idea has gotten a rather cool reception when it's been brought up. [22:43] [ Jon_Miller > but we paid you for techs you bought in the past [22:44] [ nbarclay > And we've paid toward tech you bought. [22:44] [ Jon_Miller > BTW, also we do not have horses [22:44] [ Jon_Miller > do you have any extras? [22:44] [ nbarclay > But this is a tech you could have gotten from us, albeit a bit later. [22:44] [ Jon_Miller > ah [22:44] [ Jon_Miller > so that is why you are not wanting to give us anything [22:45] [ Jon_Miller > how about splitting the difference than, 15 per say? [22:45] [ nbarclay > Why we're extremely reluctant, anyhow. [22:45] [ nbarclay > I'll check with the team and see what happens. [22:46] [ nbarclay > On other matters, I should have let you know sooner, but it looks like we'll be trading Republic after all. [22:46] [ Jon_Miller > yah [22:46] [ Jon_Miller > we guessed [22:46] [ Jon_Miller > I have heard that you guys want to remake the deal (for a while) [22:46] [ nbarclay > Lego was in a position to research Republic about as quickly as we could, which would have left us with almost no time with a monopoly. [22:46] [ Jon_Miller > we understand (I think, I need to recheck) [22:47] [ Jon_Miller > yah, because they had philosophy [22:47] [ nbarclay > Right. Which spoiled our advantage. [22:47] [ nbarclay > Do you have any idea how big a disparity there is between your research capacity and ours? [22:47] [ Jon_Miller > yah [22:47] [ Jon_Miller > we have been putting some in money recently [22:47] [ Jon_Miller > because of the issues elsewhere [22:48] [ nbarclay > Even aside from that, I bet your GNP is down around 20 or less. [22:49] [ Jon_Miller > I doubt it, I will check [22:49] [ Jon_Miller > yah [22:50] [ Jon_Miller > arround 20 [22:50] [ Jon_Miller > where is yours at? [22:50] [ Jon_Miller > (our annalysts could get a round number bsed upon tech research speed, so you would be giving away little) [22:50] [ Jon_Miller > (BTW, on the horses, could we ahve any?_ [22:51] [ Jon_Miller > (trade for any.._) [22:52] [ Jon_Miller > you there? [22:52] [ nbarclay > Sorry, I was trying to hunt down my latest screenshots. [22:52] [ nbarclay > Let me put it this way. Our GNP is more than double 20. [22:52] [ Jon_Miller > ok [22:53] [ Jon_Miller > thanks [22:53] [ Jon_Miller > on the horses (it is looking like war) [22:53] [ nbarclay > Which makes a "trade all techs" deal rather asymmetric in the long term. [22:53] [ Jon_Miller > right [22:53] [ Jon_Miller > we were hoping to catch up [22:54] [ Jon_Miller > but we just got farther behind [22:54] [ Jon_Miller > because of how it was leaning our way (We gave you more) at the beginning [22:54] [ Jon_Miller > it is evenish now (don't know exact numbers) [22:54] [ nbarclay > Once you get Republic from us, the balance will be very clearly in your favor. [22:54] [ Jon_Miller > but if the deal doesn't change, it will not be evenish in the future (Although monotheism will help) [22:55] [ Jon_Miller > no it won't (I don't think, howmuch is republic?) [22:55] [ nbarclay > 28 if I remember right. [22:55] [ Jon_Miller > I think it is a little in your favor now (with what we gave you recently) [22:55] [ Jon_Miller > ah, so probably 20 or so in our favor [22:55] [ Jon_Miller > for past trades that is a lot, in the future it is less so [22:55] [ Jon_Miller > but you are right, the trade deal needs to change until we get our research up [22:56] [ nbarclay > We aren't in a position to trade horses to you at present. That's as much as I feel comfortable saying, maybe even a little bit more. [22:57] [ Jon_Miller > well, can you sell troops? [22:57] [ Jon_Miller > they have horses, we do not [22:57] [ nbarclay > I'm not aware of any way to sell troops in the game. [22:57] [ nbarclay > Just workers. [22:57] [ Jon_Miller > ah, ok [22:58] [ Jon_Miller > I know you could in Civ2 [22:58] [ nbarclay > Too bad that's not what we're playing, huh? [22:58] [ Jon_Miller > well, are you aware of the new trade deal sent our way? [22:58] [ Jon_Miller > (from GS) [22:58] [ nbarclay > (Then again, I've never played Civ 2.) [22:59] [ nbarclay > I've skimmed the offer, but haven't really kept up with the conversations leading up to it. [22:59] [ Jon_Miller > one thing I don't like about it is that it is 20 turns.. [23:00] [ Jon_Miller > in tech speak, even for you, that is not long [23:00] [ Jon_Miller > I want something longer term (to replaec our current long term item) [23:00] [ nbarclay > Can you give me a minute to look back over the details of the proposal? [23:01] [ Jon_Miller > actually there are many things I don't liek about it [23:01] [ Jon_Miller > aure [23:02] [ nbarclay > Okay, I've looked it back over. [23:03] [ nbarclay > What are your concerns? [23:03] [ nbarclay > (Besides the 20-turn time frame.) [23:03] [ Jon_Miller > the NDA part [23:04] [ Jon_Miller > it any a way makes it so that you can just skip giving us anything as part ofthe deal (besides what you learn yourself) [23:04] [ Jon_Miller > and since we can't trade what we get from you, the usual ways for us to get things are far more limited [23:05] [ nbarclay > I can double-check, but it seems implicit from the wording that you'll get Currency and Construction. [23:05] [ Jon_Miller > well, ok, yah those to are given [23:05] [ Jon_Miller > nothing else is [23:06] [ nbarclay > True. [23:08] [ Jon_Miller > you have to see that we are concerned about that [23:08] [ Jon_Miller > since we can get those two on our own (Already had a deal for them) [23:08] [ Jon_Miller > so we are just getting republic [23:08] [ Jon_Miller > and so the deal isn't in our favor [23:09] [ nbarclay > I agree that if you'll be getting Currency and Construction elsewhere, that seriously undercuts the premise the proposal was based on. [23:09] [ Jon_Miller > we won't if you are getting them [23:09] [ Jon_Miller > but we were getting them elsewhere (we had two sources) [23:10] [ Jon_Miller > and because there were two sources, we were getting them for fairly cheap [23:10] [ Jon_Miller > because of us geting the medival tech [23:11] [ Jon_Miller > we could do the deal for a bit longer (the reason why you are getting currency and construction before us is because you finalised a deal first) [23:11] [ Jon_Miller > and we could trade our MT for other techs, and keep the deal sort of even [23:11] [ Jon_Miller > but after that, ..., we would be behind, and not catching up for a while [23:12] [ Jon_Miller > so see, this is not fair to us [23:12] [ Jon_Miller > at this time, maybe after we give you the medival tach [23:12] [ nbarclay > Part of it depends on how you define "fair". [23:12] [ nbarclay > We definitely need to give you a better deal than you'd get elsewhere, in my opinion, though. [23:12] [ Jon_Miller > (if you think of it, currency and construction you are getting from republic, we could likewise get techs fro monotheism) [23:13] [ nbarclay > Agreed. [23:13] [ Jon_Miller > and so that exchanege is fair [23:13] [ Jon_Miller > but because of the rest of the deal (we pay, you give us nothing) [23:13] [ Jon_Miller > the deal is not fair [23:14] [ Jon_Miller > I don't know if it is getting late for you [23:14] [ nbarclay > What would you consider fair? [23:14] [ Jon_Miller > and you said you are not as involved as you once were [23:14] [ Jon_Miller > but could you take my points back to the economic council? [23:14] [ nbarclay > I need to sign off soon, but I can take your concerns back to GS for consideration. [23:15] [ Jon_Miller > we could say that the tech deal is ended after the next trade (monotheism, for currency + construction + republic) [23:15] [ Jon_Miller > but I think that would be in your favor a bit [23:15] [ Jon_Miller > take my point that monotheism brings techs with it [23:16] [ Jon_Miller > in trade... [23:16] [ Jon_Miller > just by trading it we can get construction, republic, currency, plus money [23:16] [ nbarclay > Agreed. [23:16] [ Jon_Miller > why shoudl we give you monotheism, plus money, plus not being able to trade for contrsution, republic, and currency? [23:17] [ Jon_Miller > ok, that is my point [23:17] [ nbarclay > Strictly in terms of costs, I don't think it would be in our favor, but in terms of trading power, it would. [23:18] [ nbarclay > (And it might very well in costs after factoring in devaluation due to multiple civs' having a tech.) [23:19] [ nbarclay > On the other hand, if we would guarantee you at least one medieval tech we research, that would likely flip things back the other way. [23:19] [ Jon_Miller > not if we don't trade it [23:20] [ Jon_Miller > what I am imagining is this [23:20] [ Jon_Miller > GS gives Vox all tech [23:20] [ Jon_Miller > Vox gives GS first medival tech [23:20] [ Jon_Miller > Vox does not trade any Tech [23:20] [ Jon_Miller > hmm, I am not sure on the last [23:21] [ Jon_Miller > doesn't trade any tech gotten from GS? [23:21] [ Jon_Miller > Vox gives GS some money (none for the first 20 turns, more later) [23:21] [ nbarclay > None for the first 20 turns has to do with military expenses? [23:21] [ Jon_Miller > it is renewing (just with changes in the ammount given GS prt turn) [23:22] [ Jon_Miller > not really, I Think we would be even for the first 20 turns [23:22] [ Jon_Miller > (how many techs will yuo learn in that time) [23:22] [ Jon_Miller > ? [23:22] [ Jon_Miller > but somewhat yah, at least right now we need the money [23:24] [ Jon_Miller > that's just my initial suggestion, I and GS can talk more about it later [23:25] [ nbarclay > I haven't run projections on when we expect to research what, and some will depend on whether we face special military expenses of our own. [23:26] [ Jon_Miller > who would you be fighting? [23:26] [ Jon_Miller > (understand, we have special interest in this) [23:27] [ nbarclay > Understood. [23:27] [ Jon_Miller > if it is a bob nation, there might be common interest [23:27] [ nbarclay > Our most immediate concerns are defensive in nature. [23:28] [ Jon_Miller > well, as are all natinos [23:28] [ Jon_Miller > (except maybe GoW and ND) [23:29] [ nbarclay > LOL. [23:29] [ nbarclay > But you may be right, for all I know. [23:30] [ Jon_Miller > RP apparently control them [23:30] [ Jon_Miller > or so we have heard [23:30] [ Jon_Miller > we hope it is wrong, but they seemed to be encouraging them (despite having no stake in the area) in the recent issues [23:31] [ nbarclay > You think RP is encouraging GoW and ND to come after you, or some such? [23:31] [ Jon_Miller > I think it is a possibility [23:32] [ Jon_Miller > why else would they be so interested, when they aren't in the area [23:32] [ Jon_Miller > and they are diffinitely against us (in retoric) [23:32] [ nbarclay > What interest have they been showing? [23:32] [ Jon_Miller > they were part of all the dicsussion we have had to try and keep from war [23:33] [ nbarclay > But does that mean they were trying to encourage war, or to discourage it? [23:33] [ Jon_Miller > deffintiely encourage [23:34] [ Jon_Miller > you can read their retoric in the forum [23:34] [ Jon_Miller > (togas and the like) [23:34] [ nbarclay > They have posts in the general forum trying to egg war on? [23:34] [ Jon_Miller > when a GoWer or RPer speaks wrong, RP (offically) puts a stop to it [23:34] [ Jon_Miller > I think so, I coudl check again [23:34] [ nbarclay > Speaks wrong? [23:36] [ Jon_Miller > well, one RPer was on our side [23:36] [ Jon_Miller > until he was breought heavily into line [23:36] [ Jon_Miller > and RP calls GoW pact brother [23:36] [ Jon_Miller > for an example of how close they are (while telling Genghis to do something) [23:37] [ nbarclay > I just took a quick glance at the PtW DemoGame forum and noticed some of the saber rattling. I've been away from there too long and hadn't realized what was developing. [23:37] [ Jon_Miller > there is a lot o fit [23:38] [ Jon_Miller > and I and Beta ha e spent hours trying to avert war [23:38] [ nbarclay > I can believe it. [23:39] [ nbarclay > I assume you've reminded them that Bob was originally a four-civ continent, so you're just claiming a piece of the territory Lux no longer requires? [23:39] [ Jon_Miller > all day sat too [23:39] [ Jon_Miller > I dodn't get to go outside during the day time [23:39] [ Jon_Miller > yah, we ahve, and we have been poiting out that there is a _lot_ of empty room (They claim none) [23:40] [ Jon_Miller > and that the area that we are colonising is _4_ squares from our capital) [23:41] [ nbarclay > Definitely closer to yours than to any of theirs. Have you done anything toward trading maps? Map exchanges could serve as a "put up or shut up" regarding their claim of desperately needing the territory. [23:42] [ nbarclay > (By the way, I have little doubt that GS would regard Bobian maps as something of value if you can get them, although I can't say how much value.) [23:42] [ Jon_Miller > we have explored some [23:42] [ Jon_Miller > they deffinitely have more than we do [23:42] [ Jon_Miller > (you sort of know how much we do..) [23:43] [ nbarclay > I'm thinking more in terms of in the future if you can trade for Bobian maps. [23:44] [ nbarclay > Just something you might keep in mind if the opportunity arises. [23:45] [ nbarclay > Well, we've been chatting over an hour, and that's longer than I'd intended. Anything else before I sign off and let GS know of the problems with the proposed deal? [23:45] [ Jon_Miller > no [23:45] [ Jon_Miller > it has been good [23:45] [ Jon_Miller > we shoiud probably ahve stopped a bit ago [23:45] [ nbarclay > Okay, it's been nice chatting, and I wish I had more time. [23:45] [ Jon_Miller > yah me to [23:45] [ Jon_Miller > I need 50 hour days [23:45] [ Jon_Miller > (That is not counting work) [23:46] [ nbarclay > That would be nice, wouldn't it? [23:46] [ nbarclay > Bye.

	26-03-2003 18:15									#119
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A report from BetaHound:

quote: Hello zeit Jon has asked that I update you on our political and military situation - such as it is. We don't know how much of this is going to spill over onto the rest of the world, so thought it best that you know what is up. The public forum is pretty accurate so far if you can read through the clutter. We landed with two immortals, a spearman and a settler. Against GoW's recommendation - and in the face of much rhetoric from both GoW and NeuD we built a city. The logistical reasons are obvious. The land is good. We can see wine which would be had with our next city. And a nearby river for a third city and irrigation. And it is very close to our capitol. All is fine - except that we are clearly not welcome. I have been negotiating hard for three days now. The first session involved GoW, RP, and NeuD. All three wanted us off. NeuD is very adamant - almost xenophobic about this. GoW is very aggressive but political. And RP goes along with the other two and tells us we should be worried. But they are clearly on the sidelines. They warn us of what happened to Lux, and that we don't want to tangle with the two 'sharks'. Maybe our decision on Lux has cursed us somewhat. Ah well. This meeting was before we built - and GoW had the impression, as did the others, that we wre leaving. The next two meetings were with GoW alone. After we had built. The first one was very messy. Lots of posturing, etc. And lots of threats. It took me 20 minutes of back and forth to get him and UnorthO and Donegeal et al back on to the issue. Which is basically under what conditions can we stay on Bob. First it was a flat out 'no'. Then, there were some very unreasonable demands. But then we got down to some reasonable debate, and based on the conversation I had with Ghengis tonight, we may have reached an agreement with them. They sometimes speak for NeuD , or suggest what they think they will be acceptable to NeuD, so it is murky at best as to where NeuD stands. NeuD has been less than receptive to talking until we are off Bob and the city dismantled. What you see in the forum is pretty much what they are like in person. But we are getting close to an agreement; and the temperatures are cooling somewhat. This may cost us some gold in the long term, and us selling our free tech much cheaper than we wanted, but it should get us a foothold, and hopefully avoid a messy, and more importantly, costly war. GoW has horsemen in the area, and they report that NeuD is on the move with swordsmen. We are going to take the precaution of re-inforcing our city on Bob in case this does not work out. We appreciate that this may be a case of 'throwing good money after bad', but we also suspect that there is just a bit too much posturing going on. It is clear that GoW does not have iron, and GoW stated that six NeuD swordsmen were coming our way, in a further effort to impress and scare us. So if the peace does not hold, and this gets messy again, we will find out soon enough if they are bluffing. We are working on both an expansion and an exit strategy for Bob - hoping for the former, but understanding that we may have to resort to the latter. Wish us luck. On more domestic issues, I understand that we are reaching agreement on a new tech trading deal - which is great. I think that our agreement to-date has been beneficial to both of us, and will continue to be so into the future. I will keep you posted on Operation "Bob's Your Uncle" as it develops, and in any poilitical and military intelligence we glean from this somewhat bizarre experience. We would sincerely appreciate if you could keep us informed if you hear anything from the civs directly involved, as well as RP and Lego. Good to talk to you. Trust all is well with you and the leaders and citizens of GS. Cheers! ... Beta.

	27-03-2003 03:28									#120
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A reply to Beta:

quote: BetaHound of Vox Controli. Thank you for thank report, the team is very interested in this kind of information. So far most of what we have is from the public board- and this is not a very dependable source, nor as informative as first hand report. The news we saw on the board were worrisome, and it obvious there was plenty of tension. Your report, however, did inspire a bit of optimism. Although we understand your claims for the land beyond the strait- for all the reasons you've mentioned, we also believe that some diplomatic effort prior to the landing would have made things easier for you, and far less dangerous. Please give us any information you think is relevant, and willing to share- we have discovered that knowledge of the political situation on Bob is very important, and helps us shape a better foreign policy. Are you implying RP is the puppetmaster on Bob, or simply has great influence? GoW has made great effort, in the beggining at least, to raise a strong front against you- i think this is another sign of their weakness, and that's one of the reasons they wouldn't object their bigger "pact brother" using his influence... As for the tech partnership- i hope you can see our difficulty in this: We produce far more commerce than you have, add to that the your obvious need for cash for warrior upgrades. I think you have explained to Nathan your understandable difficulties, at this time, to keep up with our research capacity, but please take ours as well when you review our proposals. Also- Please inform us of any deal which includes techs you're involved in, as this would help coordinating our dealings with the Bobians. Kind Regards Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm