23-12-2002 20:32									#1
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Got PTW a week ago, and i just started playing my first game.


To my delight i started on the same isolated continent as the Ottomans.

Needless to say, the outcome was full scale genocidal war. All was good untill my crusade reached a Muslim city named Salonika.


WHAT THE HELL!!
Thesalonica is my home city!!.
I'd better die, than see it in the hands of the Turks.


The point is that Civ3 has many "dual" cities. The Greeks have Thessalonica in their city list as well. The cities should be owned by the civs who found them(and dwelled in them), not by those that they TEMPORARILY conquered them. With this in mind the Greek civ should, according to fireaxis logic, have as cities Samarkand and Persepolis.

ABOUT THE PATCH: I downloaded the american patch from civ3.com and the Euro patch from a german site. I installed the American one and the game did not recognize the CD.
I then uninstall the American and install the German. An error message occured every time i started the game. I then unistall the German patch and start the game. The game begins and it indicates that i have version 1.14f

How can that be? Fireaxis, infogrames or whoever have totaly fuc*ed it up.

	24-12-2002 14:43									#2
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You are pathetic.

	24-12-2002 15:26									#3
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Why did you install both patches? It seems more like you have "fuc*ed up"...

I guess you also see that if several civs have the same city(that is, with the exactly same name), that would make the game messy.

	24-12-2002 22:06									#4
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wow, this could be the first on-topic greek-turk debate!



it is kinda weird how they have the same city for 2 civs, but eh, just edit the city list, or remove the ottomans

	24-12-2002 23:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Why did you install both patches? It seems more like you have "fuc*ed up"... I guess you also see that if several civs have the same city(that is, with the exactly same name), that would make the game messy.

I did not install both patches at the same time. I did not know what version i had(American or European), so i DOWNLOADED both patches. I uninstalled the American patch before i installed the european.


Furthermore i own a PC since 1996(not counting the Spectrum 48K i had). I think such silly mistakes are long gone for me.

	24-12-2002 23:38									#6
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Nevertheless, I think you should have re-installed the game after installing the first and presumably wrong patch. I guess it messed up your files.

	25-12-2002 01:17									#7
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The Roman city list includes Lugdunum (also on the Celtic city list-- the third city on their list, actually), Lutetia (better known as Paris), Byzantium (better known as Istanbul), Londinium (I shouldn't have to tell you what this is in modern times), and Eburacum (on the Celtic city list, and also the English city list, as York). Actually, a lot of the Roman cities are also on the Celtic list (mainly those in Gaul).

The Russians and Aztecs also both have Tula on their lists, though they're definitely NOT the same city.

	25-12-2002 02:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov The Roman city list includes Lugdunum (also on the Celtic city list-- the third city on their list, actually),

And Lugdunum is the latin for Lyon, also in the French list...

	25-12-2002 03:13									#9
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Absolutely correct.

Do you people agree with it?


Shouldn't cities exist only in the civilizations that owned them historicaly? I mean, Alexandria although founded by Greeks should be owned by the Egyptians(as it is), while Salonika should not be owned by the Turks, although they controlled it for more than 450 years.

According to fireaxis logic Antioch should be on the Turkish list because since its capture by the Ottomans in the 11th century has been a part of their Empire. Historicaly it should belong to a Syrian civ or at worse to the Greek civ(it was founded by Antiochus the Great).

	25-12-2002 04:26									#10
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Pal: give it up - most ppl couldn't care less if certain cities appear (with slightly different spelling) in various civs lists. Firaxis's criteria seems to be if a civilization HELD a particular territory for a long-ish time. Greece was a power in the ancient period. The Ottomans were a power in the late medieval period onwards to the 1700s. Whatever...

	25-12-2002 06:20									#11
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I know that most people do not care, but shouldn't we strive to improve certain faults in the game?

Yes the "dual city thing" is the least of civ3 problems, but a problem nevertheless.

	25-12-2002 06:35									#12
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That's just it - it is NOT a problem - unless apparently you're of Greek origin and offended at the reminder of the Turkish conquest of your country. Since most ppl using apolyton aren't either Greek or Turkish, one would suppose that it wouldn't be a major emotionnal issue for them. Even as far as cosmetics go it's not an issue.

If it really bothers you that much you could just remove 'Salonika` from the Ottomans city list. I'm sure *someone* (not me) here on apolyton knows how to modify the city lists...

	25-12-2002 06:43									#13
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I know i is not a MAJOR issue, but i think it would be better if dual cities did not exist.

I am not saying anybody will stop playing the game because of it, but doesn't it look idiotic to have a Thessalonica city and a few "Km" away a Salonika?


And as far as the emotional thing goes, believe me it is not an issue. In Greece the time is 03.30 after midnight, and i stayed up playing the game i mentioned above. The Turks were obliterated and their only remaining city, Instabul, was renamed Constantinople and the Forbidden palace was built there. It is a game!

	25-12-2002 06:52									#14
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Speaking of which, does anone know what happens when you reach "New York" in the English list but New York is already built by the Americans (of course, owned by the Russians)?

	25-12-2002 07:38									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Speaking of which, does anone know what happens when you reach "New York" in the English list but New York is already built by the Americans (of course, owned by the Russians)?

Of course.

	25-12-2002 09:17									#16
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I think one of the reasons for the dual cities (besides incomplete historical research) is if you are only playing with one of the civs. Say you play with Romans, not England. Romans have Londinium. Vice versa, English get London. If both are used, then it seems that Civ isn't an historical recreation of history (which it isn't). Civ was meant to make your own history, so.....let there be one city of two names.

I'm surpirsed your not complaining about something less trivial, such as the fact that Greece is led by a *gasp* Macedonian .

	25-12-2002 19:49									#17
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though the double-names aren't a major problem, it is often strange to see "Londinium" and "London" on the same map...firaxis should have avoided this...

to come back on the other issue of your initial post: You posted that you downloaded the "euro-patch" from a german site..was it the german or the uk-patch? If you have the "euro-english" (i.e. uk-version) of ptw you'll need another patch than for other european versions. You can download the uk-patch here: http://www.infogrames.de/products/p...civ3ptw114f.exe

	27-12-2002 20:22									#18
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SOLUN E NAS

Greetings from Macedonia

	27-12-2002 20:44									#19
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX wow, this could be the first on-topic greek-turk debate! it is kinda weird how they have the same city for 2 civs, but eh, just edit the city list, or remove the ottomans

Maybe I'm dyslexic, but I don't see how Salonika and Thessalonica can be considered the same name.

	27-12-2002 21:37									#20
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Ya know, there are worse things to get worried about than city names... I really agree with Switch. Why don't you complain about those odd continents and starting locations in a random map?

	27-12-2002 21:39									#21
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Names of cities can be very important for some people.

	28-12-2002 00:27									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Cvetin SOLUN E NAS Greetings from Macedonia

Sorry, but i don't speak Bulgarian.

	10-01-2003 20:28									#23
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Hi Palaiologos
I don't speak Bulgarian too good myself either. Sorry for joining on this turk-greek nationalistic jibe with a Macedonian angle, but couldn't resist it ) (for those interested, and I don't see a reason why anyone would be, we Macedonians call Salonica Solun - the city where salt comes from. It had quite a large Macedonian population, kicked out or assimilated after the WW2 and the Greek genocide over nongreeks in nothern Greece)
I was slow to respond, went to your bella Athena for the New Year (first time I crossed the border at Evzoni since you embargoed us in 1991, 1992, not sure?). Say what's the deal with all the Pakistanis and Arabs in Athens? My friends almost got mugged on the street. Loved the soldiers in miniskirst though and had great weather.
Anyways Palaiologos Kira Henya to youu (or something like that, not sure if I remembered the exact line for Happy New Year

	10-01-2003 21:57									#24
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In the list of things I care about seeing fixed in CivIII PTW, this one has just replaced "typographical errors in the Civilopedia" for dead last. I would be insulted if someone at Firaxis wasted time trying to fix this problem when there are *dozens* of more important issues. Even the typing secretary in the back office of Firaxis could find something more useful to do than delete and compare names in text files.

Americans! Remove Houston and Dallas from your registers! Historically they were part of another country once!

If you really are THIS hard up to find something to complain about in your life, here, let me give you a stack of papers to grade from my students.

	11-01-2003 05:53									#25
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What a sad complaint.

Firaxis is simply reflecting what happens in history- the modern city of York as had various incarnations- as Eburacum, as a Saxon settlement, as the Viking trading centre Jorvik- so naturally each civilization comes equipped with its own list of names- some of which may be different names for the same city. The Mongol list contains names of cities they sacked and destroyed- so?

Londinium becomes Lundenwic becomes London- live with it and get over it.

	12-01-2003 06:31									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Cvetin Hi Palaiologos I don't speak Bulgarian too good myself either. Sorry for joining on this turk-greek nationalistic jibe with a Macedonian angle, but couldn't resist it ) (for those interested, and I don't see a reason why anyone would be, we Macedonians call Salonica Solun - the city where salt comes from. It had quite a large Macedonian population, kicked out or assimilated after the WW2 and the Greek genocide over nongreeks in nothern Greece) I was slow to respond, went to your bella Athena for the New Year (first time I crossed the border at Evzoni since you embargoed us in 1991, 1992, not sure?). Say what's the deal with all the Pakistanis and Arabs in Athens? My friends almost got mugged on the street. Loved the soldiers in miniskirst though and had great weather. Anyways Palaiologos Kira Henya to youu (or something like that, not sure if I remembered the exact line for Happy New Year

1.I thought Skopjans spoke Bulgarian.
2.The deal with the Pacistanis and Arabs, is that they are far too many in Greece.It is a country of 9.700.000 natives and more than 1.500.000 immigrants. And most them criminals.
3. You mean Kali Chronia! What you said translates into New Time.

Well, happy new year to you too!
Hope you had a splendid time in Greece.

	12-01-2003 06:46									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon In the list of things I care about seeing fixed in CivIII PTW, this one has just replaced "typographical errors in the Civilopedia" for dead last. I would be insulted if someone at Firaxis wasted time trying to fix this problem when there are *dozens* of more important issues. Even the typing secretary in the back office of Firaxis could find something more useful to do than delete and compare names in text files. Americans! Remove Houston and Dallas from your registers! Historically they were part of another country once! If you really are THIS hard up to find something to complain about in your life, here, let me give you a stack of papers to grade from my students.

I agree that there are many more serious problems in Civ3 than dual cities.

But it just doesn't look good to have a city named Salonika under Turkish ownership, and a few squares away a Greek Thessalonica.

You people from America simply can not understand what national animosity is all about.

It is like having an Iraqi or Yugoslav civ with New York and Washington in their city list. Not only it would be historicaly inaccurate, but also insulting for you.

Thessalonica was not founded by the Turks, and it is not controlled by them today.

If the Fireaxis criteria is an occupation of a city for a long time, then the Greek civ should have Alexandria and Jerusalem. But i am sure that when you think of Alexandria or Jerusalem as a Greek city in civ3, something doesn't feel right.

That is the way it is with Thessalonica.

	12-01-2003 06:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom What a sad complaint. Firaxis is simply reflecting what happens in history- the modern city of York as had various incarnations- as Eburacum, as a Saxon settlement, as the Viking trading centre Jorvik- so naturally each civilization comes equipped with its own list of names- some of which may be different names for the same city. The Mongol list contains names of cities they sacked and destroyed- so? Londinium becomes Lundenwic becomes London- live with it and get over it.

There is no reason to be upset about my complaint, Molly Bloom.

	12-01-2003 16:43									#29
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It is threads like this that is going to inspire me to personally name all my cities as I build or capture them!
Can you imagine: "Home", "2nd", "3rd", etc.

	12-01-2003 17:33									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos You people from America simply can not understand what national animosity is all about. It is like having an Iraqi or Yugoslav civ with New York and Washington in their city list. Not only it would be historicaly inaccurate, but also insulting for you. That is the way it is with Thessalonica.

Y'know, I was going to reply to this comment in a rather snide manner, but on second thought and reviewing the poster's remarks, I realize that he just doesn't get it.

Contrary to what you would like to believe, not all Americans are mindless, and I understand a lot more than you think. Do not presume upon me. That's what's insulting for me.

Lemme try this simply: It's a game, bub. Use the rename feature in the editor. And go outside and see the world sometime, while yer at it.

Sheesh. I wasted this much more time of my life responding to this guy. Won't make that mistake again.