30-01-2003 20:24									#91
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You are absolutely hopeless. I'm off this thread (like all other sensible ppls)

	30-01-2003 21:08									#92
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Where the hell is the moderator?

Apparently, they're completely useless here to allow such racist remarks to continue.

	30-01-2003 22:15									#93
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Yeah, this is freakin ridiculous...

HOW BOUT ALL YOU WHO HATE EACH OTHER SO DURN MUCH JUST PLAY PTW AGAINST EACH OTHER and then you see who is better...

Yeah, continue the hatred, that will solve things...

	31-01-2003 04:14									#94
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What racist remarks?

	31-01-2003 04:16									#95
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May I remind you folks that this is an on topic gaming forum, not the OTF where political discussion like this goes on all the time. Please stay on topic and move your political discussion to the OTF... WHERE IT BELONGS!

And if not, I can always start restricting people until you get the message

	31-01-2003 04:19									#96
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It is true, the thread has gone totally off topic.

Sorry.

	31-01-2003 04:32									#97
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Not only off topic... but it has developed into it's own little personal attack hate fest. Needless to say, if that continues ANYWHERE on this site, heads will roll

	31-01-2003 05:06									#98
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Well, I'm not really sure if this thread could actually manage to be on-topic and not off-topic. Just looking at the opening post, it reeks of hatred and off-topicness. Also, I think most on-topic comments that could be said, have been said. I suggest closing this thread.

BTW: Sweet, my grandparents are on the Greek hate list! That means I'm one step closer to actually being hated by someone. What a step forward.

	31-01-2003 05:17									#99
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I read these Forums regularly but rarely post. So many of you know so much more about this fantastic game than me that I feel I seldomly have something useful to add. I think I do this time: THANKS MING!

	31-01-2003 23:16									#100
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And the name of the game is Civilization.......What a misnomer!!!!!!!!!!

	01-02-2003 04:09									#101
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I still do not understand what did i say that was so bad.

	01-02-2003 05:46									#102
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because of the time

	01-02-2003 08:18									#103
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There are some people that can't speak about any politic theme because they feel that is "not inn" and is "not modern". Is that type of stupid people that forget that "only" POLITICS GOVERN THEIR LIVES, so *speak* about it is more important than any other thing.

But but but, as MING said, this doesn't have any relation with the topic, so all what all can say about me is: I'm sorry

and

I agree

(with MING)

	04-02-2003 05:42									#104
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Hi guys

sorry to bring up this subject again but I just came in today and when I read this whole thread I got a feeling that I wanted to puke and that is because of the fanatic views of Palaiologos.

First let me say that I'm Greek and live in Thessaloniki. As a true Greek I respect other people's cultures and views.
I agree with the historical facts that Palaiologos mentioned like the genocides of the Turks in the past, or the Slavic nation wanting to take over the name and history of Macedonia for themselves etc but I strongly disagree on all the other stuff he expressed.

There is no hate list for the Greeks whatsoever. This exists only in the mind of this guy.

Yes we have problems with Turkey but our people have more that bring them close than pull them apart.
Any man with logic would not have a hate for all Turks just because the Military leadership in Turkey has a hostile stand towards Greece. People are people everywhere and regardless of how the leadership in Turkey behaves ( and behaved), all Turks I have met in my journeys (especially those comming from Asia Minor) don't hate greeks, as most greeks don't hate the turkish.

Yes I too am irritated when I see things like "some" people claiming the ancient greek ruins in asia minor to be turkish and not greek but I'm not going to hate every single one of them just because some are a**holes.
There are such people everywhere.


Yes I'm also irritated to a great extend when I see a group of people of Slavic origin wanting to form a country that claims Ancient greek macedonian history as theirs but I'm not going to hate them. Victims of propaganda deserve our pitty and help to see the historical truth and not our hate.

I also disagree that every singel albanian that are in our country are criminals. True, when we the comunist state of Albania fell and we opened oour borders to accept the refugees, most of them where criminals at the time, and since then they have formed a Albanian mafia but I won't condemn them all as criminal based only in their origin. ( Same thing with the refugees from the former USSR)

It is true that some want to take over the northwestern part of greece and join it with Albania. Also true that by accepting refugges we opened ourselves to a huge problem that will be expressed in the near future when they will be claiming to be recognized a minority with the right take over a part of greece and become independent.

I'm sure you all understand the irony in this. We accept them in our land as a humanitarian actin 1991 because all hope was lost for them in Albania then , and in a few year they will claim it as their own.


The sole responcible for all those problems is the greek state.

When people claim your history as their own you don't stand down doing nothing, you give your fights on a diplomatic level and don't let them do so.

When criminals come in the country along with the poor people that need help you don't just let them in without questions, you strengthen your borders and don't let them in. (let alone to give them the Greek citizenship just to gain some more votes in the upocoming elections so that you'd be goverment once again).

When your rights as a country are violated, you don't just bend over and ask for more, but you stand your ground and take it to the international community.

If you don't protect yourself it's sure that someone will f*** you up and it won't be their fault.


So Palaiologos, first think of the faults our country has done to ourselves and then hate and blame the others.

If we were defending ourselves as we should have, there would be no people/nation trying to steal our history, or claim our lands as theirs. So.. chil out with that hatred, or at least with expressing it. You make your fellow country men look as foolish as you, and I can't accept that.


Once again sorry for bringing up the subject. Since I'm new around here and i will take some time to get used to this forum, please if this discussion is going to continue point me to the thread in the off topic forum that it will be continued.


Anaton

	04-02-2003 05:50									#105
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well said!

look, if it really bothers you about having two cities with the sane name, just lsighly different spellings, use the editor to change them. You can do one of two things, you can only allow a civ to build cities it built originally (sorry new york) or you can have all of the civs use the same spelling for the same city. Since you can't have two cities with the same name, whoever builds the city first gets it.

Personally though, I don't think you have a problem with the issue of cities, I think you have a problem with the turks, but I guess that's pretty obvious.

	04-02-2003 06:03									#106
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Can't we all just get along?

	04-02-2003 06:05									#107
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And oh yeah. Istanbul could be considered to be at least partially on the Greek mainland. (Sure, it was originally Byzantium, then Constantinople, now Istanbul. I say, if you decide to live in a city, don't change the name so much.
But if everybody went like that, New York would still be New Amsterdam...

	04-02-2003 06:16									#108
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Genghis-Sean has a very valid point, though. Firaxis, being American, seems to have made all of the city names without prejudice (spiced with a little ignorance, but that's really irrelevant). Since you do have this annoyance with the city name, just change it to your will. This multiple city thing is a lot more common than just (Thes)salonika. Compare the Roman and Celtic city list with that of France and England, and you'll see a lot of repeats with slightly different names (Lundinium, London, etc.). I'm sure there are some anti-Italians out there offended by the use of Londinium. I'm sure there are some oldskool Romans who are offended by London, since the Romans founded Londinium before it became English London. They can just change it as they want, and so should you. Go ahead, be offended. But don't expect the rest of the Civ community to be offended with you. I, personally, will keep Thessalonika and Salonika. As I will also keep London and Lundinium. They don't offend me, so why should my list of cities be short-handed just because they might offend someone else?

* Switch hopes this was on-topic.

	04-02-2003 06:18									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Centauri18 And oh yeah. Istanbul could be considered to be at least partially on the Greek mainland. (Sure, it was originally Byzantium, then Constantinople, now Istanbul. I say, if you decide to live in a city, don't change the name so much. But if everybody went like that, New York would still be New Amsterdam...

And Kitchener would still be Berlin. Silly Great War propaganda.

	04-02-2003 06:18									#110
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Where the hell is Kitchener?

	04-02-2003 06:20									#111
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It's a dual-city with Waterloo. It was called Berlin until the Great War (WW1), when Canadians became afraid of German ties.

	04-02-2003 06:23									#112
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Anaton:

thou hast spoken like a true patriot.

Well said.

	04-02-2003 06:28									#113
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Oh. I forgot about that.

	04-02-2003 14:29									#114
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I'm gonna break my pledge not to appear on this thread just to post one qucik question to my G(r)eek buddies. Any news from the beautiful island of Syros? I heard that on January 30 they had an UCK (albanian "liberation" army) flag flown on their main church with the word Chameria (what albanians call Epirus) on it. And Syros is in the Aegean Sea, 500 km from Chameria!!! Did theUCK marines land on a wrong beach or something? Seriously geeks, you heard about this or is it a fake story?

PS. Palaiologos, "Greece must do its utmost to support FYROM and prevent its colapse, as they form a excellent buffer state. Step two would be to drive out ALL albanians from the country."


Be still my beating heart. No Greek has ever spoken so kindly of my country Thank you, thank you master

	04-02-2003 15:05									#115
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Yes Cvetin, that's a true story. Go figure...Such stupid actions irritate greeks as it would irritate Americans see a flag of a supposed "Free Mexican Texas" in the main square of Huston, but as I said previously this is not a reason for hatred against all people with the nationality of the one that did that.



Now as for the game... sure to me having Salonica to the Ottomans doesn't feel good but one more reason to conquer that city. I've seen more historical inaccuracy in games all around that I could really care for, or be able to correct.

BTW.. Speaking of Istanbul....
that name is Greek too. Actually it's not a name but a phrase.

Constantinopole ( city of Constantine) was usualy called Pole ( City) because of the glory and the love all Greeks had for it. So you'd know when a greek says Pole with a certain tone in his voice he means Constantinopole..

Anyway "Isanbul" comes from the phase "eis tin Pole"
which means "to the City". "legent" has it that this name was given to Constantinopole by the Turks beause when they took over it and controlled the whole region, that phrase was the answer of those heading towards the city when asked.

	04-02-2003 15:49									#116
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quote: Originally posted by ktaek Any complaints you have against the Turks pales compared to the complaints that native Americans or native Australians have against the Europeans that massacred them in order to colonize those continents. And i'm sure anicent Greece had its share of imperialism that offended neighbors.

I would actually compare the situation with blacks in America. The origins of the trouble are somewhat different but the effect it has in the present is very much comparable. The healing process is there but there are still too many misconceptions, scepticism, stereotypes, etc. that make each other feel threaten by the other. Don't forget that for both Blacks and Greeks not even a generation ago were abused, attacked, killed by Whites or Turks.

Now that I am not claiming that it is correct but this is the way things are and for you Americans a way to maybe understand where the Greeks are coming from. The good news is that the steps to the right direction have been taken and I just hope that this will continue. It will take a few more generations before the complete healing takes place.

Funny thing about ignorant americans is that it is a stereotype that is somewhat right but it is a bit more universal than just an american thing, let me explain. In the documentary "Bowling for Columbine" Michael Moore says something very similar in the opening of the film:

"It's a normal day in America... ...US is bombing a country, which most Americans cannot even prounounce it's name...". Back in the Gulf War I was in the US, as I was walking in a mall I hear one guy say to the other "...where the f**k is Kuwait...". Fartheremore in my high school I made presentations of Greece, well seniors did not know if it was in Europe or in Africa. The funny/tragic part is that they were taught about the origins of western civ and Democracy so they at least had to know that Greece was in Europe. But on the other side they enjoyed themselves in football games, cheerleaders, etc. Ignorance is a Bliss and I envy Americans for that.

Ok, now lets switch continents, a couple years back I was working in Export Sales and one of the adm. staff asked (witha very surprised look in her face) "Is Greece in the EU?", The funny/tragic thing is that she has been there and part of her taxes in the last 15 years or so have gone to the modernization of Greece. I've had similar experiences over the last five years, this only proves to me that there are ignorant people everywhere, it doesn't matter if you're Greek, American, German, etc. It is a fact of life and something that is unavoidable.

So long...

	04-02-2003 15:56									#117
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I agree with Anaton on the topic and share his views on the whole matter.

As for the name, it's very ironic and when I explain it to Turks they are dumbfounded but such is life, full of
ironies

So long...

	04-02-2003 21:30									#118
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Pioneer, Your view of Americans is stereotypical and very ill informed. Becoming the major economic, cultural, and military power in the world does not happen with a population full of ignorant people. Ignorance abounds throughout the world in many different forms. It is true that The US has a wide range of peoples...some ARE ignorant, but never doubt that the majority know what we are about and how to make it happen.

BTW Centauri: New Amsterdam would be fine for New York for me. It would take a little getting used to though

	04-02-2003 22:30									#119
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Well, Pioneer you ARE right in that there are ignorant people throughout the world. Example, in my ancient history class, we were being taught about the Islamic religion (to give us a background for the Crusades), and then she mentioned how Mohammed did NOT teach to instigate war against the unbelievers, and the like. And then one of the students (one of the typically dumber ones.....you know the type) says "Doesn't Moslem mean terrorist?"
I couldn't believe my ears, he had actually said that in all honesty. Then my teacher began to explain how Moslem does NOT mean terrorist...he replies wih "Well aren't all terrorists Moslem?" Then she said they are not. He then replies "Watch the news sometime."

And that is why I understand why North Americans are stereotypicalized as ignorant to the world. Rather saddening, really. Fortunately most people in that class actually knew that Moslem does not = terrorist, and that not all terrorists are moslem.

	04-02-2003 22:35									#120
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There are some seriously stupid Americans. But on the other hand, you'll find some people (unfortunately, we're not too much of a majority) that do know what is going on and a significant amount of history and prespectives.