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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
I need to dispute that. If any of these standard martial arts are really not good for self-defense, why have them been in use, in the case of Kung Fu, for thousands of years just for that purpose? |
Well, they are all very flawed systems. No one developed anything better in those thousands of years. There is something much better now, which is basically crosstraining with Muay Thai and BJJ and Valetudo.
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Have you seen Jackie Chan fight? That's Kung Fu, and he's just pulling his punches in movies. |
And between Jackie Chan and, say, Pedro Rizzo, who do you think would win? I'm about 100% sure Jackie Chan would get his ass kicked.
Now, you might argue that traditional martial arts will be effective in a lot of street fights against untrained opponents, and I'd agree. The problem is this. Traditional martial arts take a long time to learn, and if you try to use them for self defense early in training, you will likely get hurt. One of the reasons for the long training period is that they focus so much on flashy techniques, all kinds of high-flexibility kicking, and lots of kata. All of this stuff is essentially useless in a street fight, and that time could be much better spent working with a heavy bag or a sparring partner.
Further, traditional martial arts are not nearly as effective against larger opponents as are fighting styles such as Muay Thai and Vale Tudo. I used to take traditional martial arts (TKD, Kenpo Karate) and I couldn't defend myself even against untrained fighters. Now that I take real fighting styles, I can take black belts out.
Finally, by taking a traditional martial art, you are gambling that you will never be in a fight with, say, a trained wrestler or a trained kickboxer. Now, in China that might be true (or it might not) but in the US, that's a stupid gamble. Almost everyone I run into has some sort of wrestling experience, and decent wrestlers can generally take you down no matter what.
If a Kung Fu fighter gets taken down by someone with good wrestling skills, it's unlikely that the Kung Fu grappling forms will help them too much. If a wrestler takes down a BJJ fighter, the wrestler just made a big mistake, and will probably get their arm broken or something similarly nasty.
So my point is this. While traditional martial arts might be effective in some situations, why not just train in a fighting style that is effective a much larger percentage of the time?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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Graag,
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I've been curious for a looong time: in a real fighting situation, who does win between eastern martial arts types and western street-brawling types? |
Generally the western street brawler. I mean, if you put Tank Abbot up against your average Kung Fu sifu or Karate or TKD master, I guarantee you that Tank will win. And Tank isn't (and even in his prime, wasn't) even close to being the best fighter out there. Replace Tank in that sentence with Chuck Liddell, or Pedro Rizzo, or CroCop, or Vanderlai Silva, or Vitor Belfort, or Frank Shamrock, or Tito Ortiz, and the ass kicking will be even worse.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Martial arts won't help you in self-defence. You won't prepare for unexpected ways of attacking. |
Not in traditional martial arts, no. But some styles train with scenario-based self defense. For example, one person is designated the attacker, everyone else in the room are defenders, but no one knows who is who. In this example, everyone basically just mills around, talks, whatever. The attacker picks someone - anyone - to attack at random at any time, basically guaranteeing him a first strike. Once he does that, the fight goes from there.
But you're right, Boddington - most martial arts are not incredibly effective in real fight situations.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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SM,
Who's Sapp fighting this time?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:24
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Oh K-1 sounds awesome if those are fighting! Except that I might know the winner already, it's not live broadcast and I saw some results like a week ago.. too bad. But still, it's a must see!
I don't know about traditional martial arts, since I've never trained them, but I believe they don't do that much hard sparring and fighting? Mostly techniques and maybe light sparring, right? And the rules come in the way also.. It must be a big disadvantage not to know what it's like to get punched and kicked around hard. It might come as a surprise, maybe paralize you a bit.. I think. But if you train with good sparring and good partners.. and get beaten a bit too, then it's not a surprise and you won't freeze up. And you won't be so afraid to get hit either. Most likely the streetguy has nothing new to bring you, so that would work for you. Of course the street guy might have something new  .
Also with good tough sparring you might develop some kind of instincts what to do even if you're little rocked.. defend yourself what ever, but not just cover face and wish you won't get bad hits.
They say, that you know you are in a good school if you get more beaten in training than in fights.. meaning you train hard, do hard sparring so fighting the opponent is not as hard as being in the gym.
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:24
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Leko won. not a very interesting fight.
now: Shilt (NED, karate) vs McDonald (CAN, boxing)
Last edited by Saint Marcus on 28-12-2002 at 03:32
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Well, they are all very flawed systems. No one developed anything better in those thousands of years. There is something much better now, which is basically crosstraining with Muay Thai and BJJ and Valetudo. |
Flawed? You really think that all those practictioners in thousands of years were all idiots so nobody developed anything better? You really think nobody went to other countries to see what other people had? What makes you think Muay Thai/BJJ/Valetudo are better?
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
And between Jackie Chan and, say, Pedro Rizzo, who do you think would win? I'm about 100% sure Jackie Chan would get his ass kicked. |
Like a street fight with no rules? I'd say Jackie Chan with a 90% certainty.
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
One of the reasons for the long training period is that they focus so much on flashy techniques, all kinds of high-flexibility kicking, and lots of kata. |
Um? Not all martial arts are big in kicking, and none I know are focused on flashy techniques - you gotta be stoned to think so. These martial arts are all very practical.
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Further, traditional martial arts are not nearly as effective against larger opponents as are fighting styles such as Muay Thai and Vale Tudo. |
Not necessarily. An Aikido blackbelt will kick this Pedro Rizzo's butt any day of the week.
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
I used to take traditional martial arts (TKD, Kenpo Karate) and I couldn't defend myself even against untrained fighters. Now that I take real fighting styles, I can take black belts out. |
If you insist - but I am skeptical.
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Finally, by taking a traditional martial art, you are gambling that you will never be in a fight with, say, a trained wrestler or a trained kickboxer. Now, in China that might be true (or it might not) but in the US, that's a stupid gamble. Almost everyone I run into has some sort of wrestling experience, and decent wrestlers can generally take you down no matter what. |
I have not fought any trained wrestler or a trained kickboxer so I cannot tell, but we have surely seen wrestlers - the mongols and the manchus are big into wrestling. We also have our own forms of martial arts that are big into kicking.
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
If a Kung Fu fighter gets taken down by someone with good wrestling skills, it's unlikely that the Kung Fu grappling forms will help them too much. If a wrestler takes down a BJJ fighter, the wrestler just made a big mistake, and will probably get their arm broken or something similarly nasty. |
What I can tell is you do not understand what is in a Kung Fu style. I presume you acquire your knowledge mostly in a second-handed way through not very reliable sources? You need to correct your misperceptions.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Flawed? You really think that all those practictioners in thousands of years were all idiots so nobody developed anything better? You really think nobody went to other countries to see what other people had? What makes you think Muay Thai/BJJ/Valetudo are better? |
I think that Muay Thai/BJJ/ValeTudo are better based upon my personal experience, and every NHB/MMA tournament in recent years.
I can't recall ANY traditional martial artist winning ANY UFC/Pride match, with the exception of Keith Hackney, a Kenpo Karate fighter, who beat some fatass Sumo guy. I can bring up lots of examples of traditional fighters losing to BJJ/Muay Thai/Valetudo/other - Royce Gracie beat the Dutch Karate champion in UFC 1, a Japanese Karate legend in UFC 2, and a Wing Chun sifu in UFC (IIRC) 3. Tank Abbott beat Cal Worsham, a Tae Kwon Do fighter (who wasn't even using TKD technique). Frank Shamrock destroyed John Lober, a JKD fighter. In terms of MMA/NHB tournaments, though, not too many traditional fighters even bother anymore - they just don't stand a chance.
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Like a street fight with no rules? I'd say Jackie Chan with a 90% certainty. |
I rather doubt that - personally, I think Jackie Chan would have trouble with a high calibre heavy weight boxer.
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Um? Not all martial arts are big in kicking, and none I know are focused on flashy techniques - you gotta be stoned to think so. These martial arts are all very practical. |
Erm, which martial arts are you referring to?
And besides, you never addressed the kata point - katas are patently useless in terms of fighting.
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Not necessarily. An Aikido blackbelt will kick this Pedro Rizzo's butt any day of the week. |
Then I encourage an Aikido blackbelt to enter a MMA tournament and fight him. Or, for that matter, walk up to him on the street and challenge him. Either way, an Aikido fighter is NOT going to beat a high quality submission wrestler/kickboxer.
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If you insist - but I am skeptical. |
Well, there's a group of people I train with at my university. Last year, we would train, and a Tae Kwon Do class had the gym right after us. They would usually watch the tail end of our workout, which basically was us beating the **** out of each other (no forms, no synchronized kicking, no one step sparring, but real training). One of them, a third degree blackbelt, decided to come work out with us one day. This guy was about 5'8", maybe 175 or so, pretty well built, and he thought he could take us. By the way, our group included wrestler, BJJ people, Valetudo fighters, boxers, and Thai boxers, and people who cross trained in everything.
Well, this guy thought wrong. We didn't fight with special rules or anything other than basic equipment (cups, mouthpiece, UFC-style gloves, everything else optional). This guy must have fought 4 or 5 of us, including myself, and we ALL ripped him up. After that, he started working out exclusively with us, and decided that TKD was worthless.
We had another guy, who took Shotokan Karate, who worked out with us a couple of times. He and I got into a discussion about catching kicks. He seemed to think that he could use a karate-style kick, and break my ribs with it, even if I was trying to catch it. I laughed a little and told him to prove it - launch any kick he wants at me, full strength, and I either catch it and take him to the ground, or "get a broken rib". Well, long story short, we started sparring, and sure enough, first thing he does is try to score with a roundhouse to the ribcage. I moved away from the kick and caught it against my body (proper BJJ method of catching a kick of that style), and took him to the ground.
I've also fought a couple of Kung Fu (don't remember the styles) fighters, and ripped them up.
My friend and I walked into a Judo practice session once, and worked out with them. We beat their fighters all the way up the rankings, from white to brown belts, in less than a couple of minutes each. It wasn't until we hit their blackbelts that we were fought to a draw (this was all on the ground, by the way, no striking involved, and going by Judo tournament rules - and we were both around BJJ blue belt level at the time).
I've seen a friend of mine who has had 12 years of Muay Thai experience tear into various Karate and TKD fighters who come work out with us from time to time.
Do YOU have any personal experience of traditional martial arts beating BJJ/Valetudo/Muay Thai?
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I have not fought any trained wrestler or a trained kickboxer so I cannot tell, but we have surely seen wrestlers - the mongols and the manchus are big into wrestling. |
I don't know a lot about Chinese or Mongolian wrestling, but if it is anything like US wrestling (not WWF), then don't expect to stay standing with them in a fight, because it's quite unlikely.
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We also have our own forms of martial arts that are big into kicking. |
I understand that. But not all kicks are equal, and I seriously doubt you have a kick that can generate the power and speed of a Thai kick, while at the same time doing enough damage to an important part of the body and being hard to catch.
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What I can tell is you do not understand what is in a Kung Fu style. I presume you acquire your knowledge mostly in a second-handed way through not very reliable sources? |
If first hand experience fighting Kung Fu fighters isn't reliable, I don't know what is.
Sure, some Kung Fu sifu who's the head Kung Fu guy in China could probably beat me - but come on, that's not a fair comparison. Put me up against one of his students who's only been training for 5 or 6 years, and put HIM up against someone like Frank Shamrock, or CroCop, or Pedro Rizzo, and see what happens.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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SM,
quote:
Lee, if using 2002 JKD techniques, would wipe the floor with Rizzo. |
One of the most experienced and best JKD fighters of the past few years, John Lober, got his ass handed to him by Frank Shamrock. You can argue all you want that Bruce Lee would win (and I'll still disagree), but I can always say that if Bruce Lee's opponents in the 60s were trained according to today's standards in Valetudo, BJJ, whatever, they would wipe the floor with HIM. Either way, it's not gonna happen, so what's it matter?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:24
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We need to remember that early UFC's for example were more style vs. style. Ring girls carried Kickboxing vs. Karate signs. It was also supposed to test what works, what doesn't. That was back in 93. Now we have seen it develop for years into more perfect fighting styles, and there's no room for traditional martial artists today in the ring or octagon, sad but true  .
Of course it depends very much the invidual behind the art, but looks like they don't like to defend their style, or aren't able to master it so they could actually win.
There is one more traditional martial artist in the rings now that I really like and I'm looking forward to see him fight more.. Genki Sudo. He's very good and a show man, but he can also fight. But one out of hundreds is bad ratio.
I honestly just can't see Jackie Chan win even the opening rounds of tournament, of rank so that he could even enter the ring. Even in his age, he is very impressive with his stunts, he's in great shape, and I believe he can fight decently. But the only one I could think he would have a chance is Joe Son.
I can see why someone would claim that Bruce Lee would do great in the ring, although I disagree. But I can't see why someone would think Jackie Chan would do good . Or Mike Tyson for that matter.
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27-12-2002 19:52
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