27-12-2002 02:24									#1
	Mixed Martial Arts Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Not that long ago there was a thread about mixed martial arts. (or free fighting, no holds barred fighting, etc). I've only watched it a few times, it isn't all that interesting really (in my opinion). Anyway, I have a few questions.

one is about the Gracies. I think someone told me that they were so ass kicking good (if I'm mistaken, please tell me). I'd seen them fight a few times, but only recently I came across some of their fights with Sakuraba. His nickname is "The Gracie Hunter". How come that Japanese guy seemed to have little problem beating them?

second thing is more of an observation. Not many good regular martial arts fighters do well in MMA. Yet, the reverse is also true. I just watched some kickboxing fights on Eurosport between regular kickboxers and some MMA kickboxers. Of course the regular kickboxers won under the standard kickboxing rules, and didn't seem to have too many problems either. Are there any good MMA fighters who do excel in the "standard" martial arts?


anyway, the main reason I find it rather uninteresting, is because of (weaker) fighters often being content just lieing on the floor with their legs in the air, or being rolled up as a ball. I understand it's the best defense you have, but it does make rather boring fights. Plenty of exceptions though, thank God. I also find it a bit cheap to kick a man when he's down, but that's probably just me. Gentlemen's agreements don't apply to that brand of fighting.

	27-12-2002 04:22									#2
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Stick with boxing. None of that rolling around crap.
Course, I know most martial art people are eaten up with the billybadass syndrome.

	27-12-2002 04:47									#3
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well indeed. the rolling around is quite annoying.

Personally I prefer the K-1 tournaments. Still MMA, but no rolling, since it has more rules (like nothing hitting someone when he's down). Quite interesting. Less savage too, it's clean fighting. The guys from Pride still get creamed a lot though by the hands (and feet) of the pro kick/tai boxers, since grappling isn't allowed (or even possible with the boksing gloves).

Last edited by Saint Marcus on 27-12-2002 at 05:01

	27-12-2002 11:47									#4
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YEeeesss! My favourite topic! Excellent .. Now let's work on this..

Your first question about Gracies. They are indeed legends. They started UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championships) in the US and introduced the sport for bigger audiences. At the very beginning, Gracie dominated the sport for a long time with no losses. They had their own unique style of Jiu Jitsu.. which was developed by their father Helio Gracie. The family has lots of brothers that are excellent fighters. So.. one of them, Royce, started competing in the first UFC, and won several tournaments. Of course even the best ones gets beaten some day, and they have started taken losses too, but are still at the very top. Then came other big (now bigger) organisation, Pride. Pride is japanese tournament and events are super big. Gracies now fight mostly in there, and have been beaten in their also.

Japanese fighter named Kazushi Sakuraba came guns blazing to the ring and beat several of the formerly undefeated Gracies. One after another he took them down and submitted them. It was pretty unheard of, so it was a big thing. They asked from Gracies why Sakuraba has been so succesfull against them, and Ryan Gracie said Sakuraba has lots of talent, lots of skills and heart.. and that he is very very lucky . Sakuraba is exciting fighter, he puts up a good show too. He has 'special moves' and audience goes crazy when he introduces them in fight. Flashy things, put also working stuff. Sakuraba has took some losses now too, last time he took a beating from Mirko Filipovic aka CroCop (Croatian Cop). You might know him as K-1 veteran and as a devostating striker. He literally broke Sakus face.
Before that fight, Saku took a beating from Prides bad boy, Vanderlei Silva, also one of my favourites. Now this guy is exciting. He is the most aggressive fighter I have ever seen. He has the best stare down I have ever seen. He is so intimidating you have to see it for yourself. He's a brazilian guy, and he has smashing knees and elbows, and he uses them too, rarely goes down for wrestling. He uses brutal soccer kicks to the opponents head when he first knocks him down with a punch or kick. Speeds up and BLAM! He never stops. And if the guy is in defending position on the ground and he is up.. well he speeds up, jumps and stomps the guy! Very exciting and dangerous guy.

Now, there are many good good strikers in MMA scene. Many of them former K-1 champions, and other worldchamps from kickboxing etc. For example Guy Metzger is one. As far as striking skills go, I'm amazed by the striking skills of brazilian chute box guys, they just smash the opponents with knees and elbows. There is one guy in K-1 who is coming to MMA, you might know him too, LeBanner. Very exciting, and he can be dominating. We just have to see how can he develop his ground game.. But his strikes are very good. He's big, he's FAST, he's accurate.. and he has natural power.

As far as rolling all the time goes.. well it's just something it has developed to.. Usually a fighter has better stand up, or ground game. If you have better ground game, you don't want to stand up.. if the opponent has a better stand up, there's no reason to stand up and exchange.. better to go down where you have chance to win the match too! Good stand up fighters have sometimes great takedown defense, so the other guy can't take you down and HAS to exchange kicking and punching. It can be a bit boring sometimes though, I however enjoy that game very much too because I know what's going on.. but some fights are just downright boring.. that much I can give you.

You might want to check out the early UFC's, where the guys didn't knew ground game so much, and if the other one knew,, it was pretty brutal, or chances where both didn't knew, and they just went wild brawling. Good fights. Now it's more sophisticated, everyone is educated. They know a bit of everything. If someone has wrestling backround (many US fighters have), it might be more natural to them to go down than go striking, even if they are good at it. If someones backround is striking of some sort, then we can expect him to want to stand up.. problem is if the other one wants to go down and is good at it.. chances are the opponent can do very little to stop it.

Also Pride is good to check out, it has lots of guys that do striking mostly, and many times the fights end fast and with KO. I think Pride fights are more simular to K-1 than UFC, and many K-1 fighters have gone, or are going to Pride. Hey, Hoost didn't win Schilt in K-1 match, and Schilt is MMA fighter ! Crappy fight it was..

So my last words are, check out Pride if you have only checked out UFC which is great too IMO. And if you get a chance, check out EARLY UFC's. Like from 1 to 10.. I think that might be more you're looking for as you like striking, and not so much that grappling part and especially if it goes boring 40 minute love making. I hate it too sometimes. Don't give up on MMA yet, it's great and it's going to be the biggest thing!

	27-12-2002 11:52									#5
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The thing that first got me into this sport big time is the early UFC's, they were 16(?) men elimination tournaments. No rules, no time limits or rounds, no weight classes. Big guys vs. smaller guys, throw them in a cage and it's bound to be exciting. They fought the whole tournament in ONE night, so the winner had to fight 4 fights in one night. Bare hands, exciting fights.

	27-12-2002 11:59									#6
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I'll have to add that there were some rules in the early UFC's as well, no eye gouging? But I remember Hackney won Joe Son by punching his nuts several times . So it was pretty much no rules anyway. Fortunately he wore a cup.

	27-12-2002 12:05									#7
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IMO, UFC's and such tournaments don't really mean anything. To me they are along the lines of pro wrestling.

	27-12-2002 12:08									#8
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UR, what did you call my mama? .

	27-12-2002 12:10									#9
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"Mrs Pekka, your son punched some other kid in the nuts a few times, calling himself some Gracie or another. You better come down to the police station and have a look at him."

	27-12-2002 12:15									#10
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Hehehe . Actually my mother had to sign up some kind of waiver when I started doing the sport myself when I was 16.. We really had to negotiate about it, she wasn't too excited! But after few black eyes, and other nasty bruices, she came around and accepted it.
I wouldn't punch anyone without it being self defense.

I confess that I sometimes get too excited about this whole issue.. It's not everybodys cup of tea, and I have difficulties to understand that .

*waiting for David Floyd to take over*

	27-12-2002 13:03									#11
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we need to put some horribly obeese person with the swiftness of an african swallow in the octogon

	27-12-2002 13:06									#12
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They were few horribly obese fighters at early ufc's? At least one sumo .

	27-12-2002 13:06									#13
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UR,

quote: IMO, UFC's and such tournaments don't really mean anything. To me they are along the lines of pro wrestling.

That's true to an extent, what with all the rules that have been introduced, but remember that most of the fighters really are fighters, and you'd have to search long and hard for someone who could take them in a streetfight.

Saint Marcus,

quote: I've only watched it a few times, it isn't all that interesting really (in my opinion).

Like anything else, it becomes much more interesting if you are actually involved in it.

quote: one is about the Gracies. I think someone told me that they were so ass kicking good (if I'm mistaken, please tell me). I'd seen them fight a few times, but only recently I came across some of their fights with Sakuraba. His nickname is "The Gracie Hunter". How come that Japanese guy seemed to have little problem beating them?

The Gracies have never been excellent strikers. They are great grapplers, and in the beginning that was good enough, but not anymore. Today, Royce would probably lose against someone like Pedro Rizzo, for example, who is excellent in both elements.

With regards to Sakuraba, I'm not sure why he's so successful against the Gracies. My guess is that he basically goes to school on Gracie Jiujitsu, and learns everything about it, before fighting a Gracie. When he fought Vanderlai, he got his ass kicked both times, and CroCop beat him too - he's not a very good striker, in my opinion.

quote: second thing is more of an observation. Not many good regular martial arts fighters do well in MMA. Yet, the reverse is also true. I just watched some kickboxing fights on Eurosport between regular kickboxers and some MMA kickboxers. Of course the regular kickboxers won under the standard kickboxing rules, and didn't seem to have too many problems either. Are there any good MMA fighters who do excel in the "standard" martial arts?

Well, "standard" martial arts competitions, such as TKD, Karate, etc., tend to have even more rules than UFC. A ValeTudo fighter would get his ass kicked in a Tae Kwon Do point fighting match, naturally, but if he actually fought the TKD fighter, he would rip him up. "Standard" martial arts, such as Tae Kwon Do, Karate (all forms), Kung Fu (all forms), and the various other ones, are NOT realistic or effective self-defense styles, at least not against skilled or larger opponents, or opponents who know how to wrestle.

quote: anyway, the main reason I find it rather uninteresting, is because of (weaker) fighters often being content just lieing on the floor with their legs in the air, or being rolled up as a ball. I understand it's the best defense you have, but it does make rather boring fights.

Well, again, you have to understand what they are doing. The Frank Shamrock/Tito Ortiz UFC fight would probably have bored you to death, because it had tons of grappling, yet it is recognized as one of the greatest UFC fights ever.

quote: I also find it a bit cheap to kick a man when he's down, but that's probably just me.

"Cheap" becomes irrelevant in real fighting. I have absolutely no problem with groin shots, eye gouging, using dirt, fishhooking, kicking a man while he's done, face stomping, or anything else regarded as "cheap", in a real fight. Your goal should be to escape the situation with as little damage to yourself as possible. If that means running away, fine, and if that means giving the guy a bad concussion and sending him to the hospital for blood loss by banging his head against the street, that's fine too.

	27-12-2002 13:07									#14
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quote: we need to put some horribly obeese person with the swiftness of an african swallow in the octogon

The very first UFC fight featured that, and there have been multiple examples of fat asses getting the **** beaten out of them since.

	27-12-2002 13:15									#15
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I don't think kicking someone when he's down is unfair either. It's completely fine. I don't mean I would go and kick some pregnant lady when he's down, we have to remember that it's in the rules. It's more realistic. If someone is down and you're standing, why would you let him up and possibly risk the fight? You could just kick the opponent and stomp. Sure, it's a bit brutal, but it's not like you lose your pride or something if you do it. You want to finish the opponent, you don't want to get hurt like David Floyd said. You have to be effective and stomping is effective. These are the little things that makes it more exciting, otherwise it could be just like boxing. In a real fight, there's no boxing rules.. just avoid being in that position to get stomped and kicked. And even then it doesn't mean you have lost the fight.

Besides, if you think that's wrong, then why won't people complain more about wars and stuff, now that's brutal! I see nothing wrong in it, but you have to have some brains, you can't just go beat people up in mcdonalds drive in. It's a sport.

	27-12-2002 13:17									#16
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I pointed out earlier, that boxing might be far more dangerous, because there are lots of punches to the head. Now.. if someone decided to hit me 400 times to my head, I think it would be less brutal to take him down and stomp his face few times and get it over. Boxing.. now that's dangerous. Most of the MMA fighters still have their faces about the same way they were born with.

	27-12-2002 13:42									#17
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The very first UFC fight featured that, and there have been multiple examples of fat asses getting the **** beaten out of them since.

There was the little sumo (only 400 lbs), the big sumo (the black dude from New Jersey who is actually a pretty good sumo guy, but fought a tough "little" SOB who punched his lights out), the Hawaiian dude who got KOed in about 10 seconds by Tank Abbot. There was the fat ass kick boxer who lost to the Nederlander we called "Sailor" (because of his tatoos) after outlasting a karate guy in an ugly fight.

	27-12-2002 15:02									#18
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Where can I see this stuff in the UK? We get very little good ass-kicking action on TV.

	27-12-2002 15:27									#19
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, "standard" martial arts competitions, such as TKD, Karate, etc., tend to have even more rules than UFC. A ValeTudo fighter would get his ass kicked in a Tae Kwon Do point fighting match, naturally, but if he actually fought the TKD fighter, he would rip him up. "Standard" martial arts, such as Tae Kwon Do, Karate (all forms), Kung Fu (all forms), and the various other ones, are NOT realistic or effective self-defense styles, at least not against skilled or larger opponents, or opponents who know how to wrestle.

I need to dispute that. If any of these standard martial arts are really not good for self-defense, why have them been in use, in the case of Kung Fu, for thousands of years just for that purpose? Have you seen Jackie Chan fight? That's Kung Fu, and he's just pulling his punches in movies.

	27-12-2002 17:31									#20
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Graag, oh man you missed big time, UFC was in the UK some time ago! anyway, it's on PPV (pay per view) in the US, maybe you have some simular channel?

	27-12-2002 17:48									#21
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quote: Where can I see this stuff in the UK? We get very little good ass-kicking action on TV.

PPV. Internet.

K-1 is on Eurosport.

	27-12-2002 17:48									#22
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Crap. I was out of the country for a good while. We have a variety of cable chanels, each cunningly disguised as something worthwhile, but on closer inspection are in fact ****.

Best I can do is a bit of the old Muay Thai (kickboxing) on EuroSport, but thats all a bit dull really. Too many rules, too little blood.

I've been curious for a looong time: in a real fighting situation, who does win between eastern martial arts types and western street-brawling types?

	27-12-2002 17:49									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus PPV. Internet. K-1 is on Eurosport.

Where on internet?

What is K-1?

	27-12-2002 17:53									#24
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quote: he's not a very good striker, in my opinion

I don't think so either. But I was just really suprised that he won every fight against any of the Gracies. And that's enough to earn my respect

And David, what do you think about K-1?

	27-12-2002 17:56									#25
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quote: Where on internet?

any filesharing program and various sites too, though they get closed down a lot.

quote: What is K-1?

K-1 fuses centuries of tradition from martial arts such as karate, kung fu, tae kwon do and kickboxing into a thoroughly modern and electrifying spectator sport. The K-1 rules are designed to allow fighters from different disciplines to meet and compete on an even playing field, while the elaborate staging of K-1 events makes these extravaganzas a veritable feast for the senses.

Honor and respect rule in the K-1 arena, there is no grappling or wrestling and there are none of the cheap shots that mar many so-called "open" or "no-rules" fighting competitions. Instead, K-1 combatants draw on their finely-honed skills to deliver the clean punches and kicks that make this the most sophisticated and advanced fighting sport in the world today. K-1 is where you will find the finest stand-up fighters vying for the distinction of being crowned the best of the best.

	27-12-2002 18:01									#26
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K-1 sounds like the ****. And on Eurosport, you say. Excellent.

	27-12-2002 18:05									#27
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http://www.eurosport.co.uk/home/pag...Prs0_Ven2.shtml

today on Eurosport at 10pm CET. K-1 World Grand Prix.

tomorrow are the finals...9pm CET on Eurosport

	27-12-2002 18:10									#28
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Hehehehehehehehhehehe.

Now all I need to do is find a way to remove family from the living room to enjoy bloodsport the way it should be enjoyed; drunk, naked, and shouting wildly.

	27-12-2002 19:19									#29
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Yep, I enjoy K-1 too. It really has good fighters, and exciting fights too. And it's on Eurosport, so that's definitely a plus too.

	27-12-2002 19:23									#30
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Just as a sidenote, I don't enjoy seeing blood that much.. it's a small turn off for me. Especially bad cuts (but how bad cut can you give really).. Just have to remember that they are not dangerous, they just look nasty and that's all there is to it. Actually it's pretty good strategy to try to cut someone, it's not very encouraging to see your own blood or swalloing it all the time..

.. but to me this isn't about blood. There is sometimes blood (everytime a little at least).. but when strikes come to the head from human, there's not really much blood that can come out. Shots to the body won't open wounds... and only so little can come out of near the eyes or nose.
Sure some blood might come, but like comparing to being hit by a truck.. it's nothing too serious.