28-12-2002 08:44									#31
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"

That comment is so full of ignorance I see no need to reply."

Then don't. Dismissing arguments based on stupidity was just was you accuse me of beign fallacious on in your dictatorship thread. You are being a hypocrite. The only difference here is your argument on the US dictatorship were dumb enough to warrant being dismissed.

"(And is actually a fallacious arguement - red herring. Of course your so full of fallacious arguements that pointing out one would definately not do justice.) "

This is Apolyton, not formal debate session. If I made one criticism of a European country on a thread about European country, I would immediatly be hit with "oh ya, well the USA did X". Such swipes are very much in order here.

	28-12-2002 08:55									#32
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The countries they're being sent to for interrogation wouldn't happen to be their home countries would they? Now that would be inhuman!

	28-12-2002 09:03									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi " That comment is so full of ignorance I see no need to reply." Then don't. Dismissing arguments based on stupidity was just was you accuse me of beign fallacious on in your dictatorship thread. You are being a hypocrite. The only difference here is your argument on the US dictatorship were dumb enough to warrant being dismissed.

You do have a point, and therefore in response:

If they think of the detainees as martyers, and they think of us as infidels, chances are that this will not weigh in our favor. In fact, it will possibly (with the help of propaganda) make them join the "Holy War" against us.

quote: This is Apolyton, not formal debate session. If I made one criticism of a European country on a thread about European country, I would immediatly be hit with "oh ya, well the USA did X". Such swipes are very much in order here.

Whether its on Apolyton, Civfanatics, Yahoo, in person....its still fallacious.

	28-12-2002 09:17									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 If they think of the detainees as martyers, and they think of us as infidels, chances are that this will not weigh in our favor. In fact, it will possibly (with the help of propaganda) make them join the "Holy War" against us.

Regardless of whether the US is or isn't torturing detainees (and I'm skeptical of the arguments that it is), what makes you think that, with all that propoganda, those who end up becoming terrorists are even willing to listen to the US side (or that the US side would even get through that propoganda)? Do you think those who are willing to devote their lives to terrorism do a careful balanced analysis and investigation of the facts of the issue before they become terrorists, or do you think they become terrorists because of the brainwashing propoganda they've recieved all their lives?

	28-12-2002 09:31									#35
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Let's just put them up at Jaakko's place and be done with it.
Easy solution.

	28-12-2002 10:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Regardless of whether the US is or isn't torturing detainees (and I'm skeptical of the arguments that it is), what makes you think that, with all that propoganda, those who end up becoming terrorists are even willing to listen to the US side (or that the US side would even get through that propoganda)?

I highly doubt anyone with all that propaganda who becomes a terrorist will change their minds.

quote: Do you think those who are willing to devote their lives to terrorism do a careful balanced analysis and investigation of the facts of the issue before they become terrorists, or do you think they become terrorists because of the brainwashing propoganda they've recieved all their lives?

I believe that they go through the facts as they believe them. But thats where the propaganda comes in: It doesn't tell the truth (obviously) so the fact they know probably isn't fact at all.

But are we willing to give these weapons to our enemy? Apparently.....

	28-12-2002 14:30									#37
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Asher - so because they're terrorists, it's OK to treat them like ****, diobeying international law?

The point is that it is not certain that all the detainees in Cuba etc actually all terrorists...

IIRC a few months back several men in their 70's were released and allowed to return to Australia after over a year in which the US authorities could find no evidence of terrorist links.

What is even more frightening is that innocent people are also being subjected to this kind of treatment!

Rather like those innocent people that are sentenced to death and murdered in US jails from time to time...

	28-12-2002 17:05									#38
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There are also accusations of beatings and withholding of pain medication. And yes, both sleep deprivation and forcing people to stand in uncomfortable positions for extended periods count as torture. Note that this isn't Guantanamo we're talking about, where such things apparently don't happen, but other bases that are off limits to observers (that's the big difference to the debate last time).

quote: According to Americans with direct knowledge and others who have witnessed the treatment, captives are often "softened up" by MPs and U.S. Army Special Forces troops who beat them up and confine them in tiny rooms. The alleged terrorists are commonly blindfolded and thrown into walls, bound in painful positions, subjected to loud noises and deprived of sleep.

quote: Abu Zubaida, who is believed to be the most important al Qaeda member in detention, was shot in the groin during his apprehension in Pakistan in March. National security officials suggested that Zubaida's painkillers were used selectively in the beginning of his captivity. He is now said to be cooperating, and his information has led to the apprehension of other al Qaeda members.

And finally, does anyone honestly think that giving prisoners for others to torture is any different from doing the deed yourself?

	28-12-2002 17:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I lived in a house in a valley in California without air conditioning for two years, I know how exhausting and uncomfortable heat can be. It's still not torture. By red_jon's logic, the Canadian government is torturing our guards who need to stand outside certain government buildings in those ridiculous costumes and hats, not moving for hours on end in the summer heat.

Wow, you lived in California without air conditioning, yeah that's the same

We are talking about a combination of extreme heat (take a look at the full body suits - there are no gaps or room for cooling) and forced sensory deprivation, simultaniously.

I would say that this counted as severe. The prisoners were also kept in tiny box cages.

If you think this is humane then you obviously have an extremely disturbed mind.

	28-12-2002 18:05									#40
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They are from the sandy deserts these types, Red Jon. They are used to the heat.

	28-12-2002 18:26									#41
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Not that kind of heat - in such a confined space it would be stifling.

	28-12-2002 18:29									#42
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Aww, poor terrorists.

I don't remember you batting an eyelid when Daniel Pearl was being tortured.

Or perhaps that's because he is American.

	28-12-2002 18:30									#43
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Umm, actually yes I did care about that - but we are comparing one person to a hundred.

Knowing you however, only the white ones matter.

	28-12-2002 18:38									#44
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The terrorists are white.

	28-12-2002 18:40									#45
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Umm, no they arent.

	28-12-2002 18:40									#46
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And besides, we're talking about an innocent journalist who was kidnapped for political ends and comparing that to terrorists arrested in order to stop them murdering another few thousands innocents.

But of course, you want them released because it'd probably be Americans they attacked and that's alright by you fairy liberals.

	28-12-2002 18:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Umm, no they arent.

Liberals.

	28-12-2002 18:42									#48
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I'm strongly against torture of any kind. I don't think this is the case here. I don't see the problem with heat. However I see a small problem with blocking all the senses, can't see, can't hear, for longer periods. Don't know how long they were subjected to this and I'm not a psychologist, but I think longer than 24h would damage mental health pretty badly. I don't think they were treated this way for so long.

I also believe moral high ground is important. And I also think US hasn't lost it.. at least not yet. We'll see what the future brings, but I wasn't shocked at the pictures in papers. So they were in small cages. Look at the prisoners in normal prisons in the US... they have it even worse. Not an excuse of course, but.. I don't see the problem yet.

	28-12-2002 18:42									#49
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I think you'll find the vast majority of them come form the middle-east. The Britons held there were also of ethnic origin.

	28-12-2002 18:47									#50
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And for 'the enemy is using it too, we have to fight them with that' is not for my beliefs. If you lower yourself to the same methods, well then you're no better. Who gives a crap about motives, or who started it first.

But I have to say I'm curious.. let's pretend American group strikes here.. and we label it as terrorist act of war.. could we fly there and kidnap the group and bring back here if the US gov won't arrest them? Just a thought, not meant to be provocation of any kind.. but I'd say no chance in hell.

	28-12-2002 18:47									#51
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That doesn't mean they aren't white.

	28-12-2002 18:47									#52
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To be more exact, if you use terror tactics, then you're terrorist. No matter what it says in your passport.

	28-12-2002 18:51									#53
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To us, Croatian is ethnic origin Red Jon, so I suppose Croats aren't white either!

	28-12-2002 19:21									#54
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Pekka - the situation here is worse than what happened in Guantanamo, where IIRC the sensory deprivation was only during transportation. Now they're using sensory deprivation, long periods of standing in painful positions and sleep deprivation as punishment for not cooperating. They may also be beaten. It's a clear attempt at breaking a prisoner's will by inflicting physical and/or mental suffering. If that's not torture, then I don't know what is.

	28-12-2002 19:22									#55
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According to most left-wing organisations Irish people are black...

	28-12-2002 19:23									#56
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Boddington's, you're using a pathetic line of arguing. Shall we argue about the skin tones of the aerage middle-eastern male? I think it's safe to say it isn't white.

And I would never wish torture upon anyone based on nationality or colour.

	28-12-2002 19:28									#57
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Jaakko, well.. if those are 100% true, then those would count as torture. Depends how severely they are forced of course. Those are pretty well known, like too little or no food, denial of medical attention etc.
I don't know the case too good here, I though we were talking about Guantamo...

	28-12-2002 19:32									#58
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Boddington's, you're using a pathetic line of arguing. Shall we argue about the skin tones of the aerage middle-eastern male? I think it's safe to say it isn't white. And I would never wish torture upon anyone based on nationality or colour.

No, but you're getting inflamed at a few terrorists having a bit of rough treatment, whereas when innocent Pearl was kidnapped, you had nothing to say on the matter, either because he was white or because he was American. Probably both.

This is another thing about pansy liberals, they hate themselves for being white.

	28-12-2002 19:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's No, but you're getting inflamed at a few terrorists having a bit of rough treatment, whereas when innocent Pearl was kidnapped, you had nothing to say on the matter, either because he was white or because he was American. Probably both. This is another thing about pansy liberals, they hate themselves for being white.

Umm, maybe because I wasn't posting on poly at the time, ya dumbass.

And if over 100 counts as 'a few', then you have severe vocabulary problems.

	28-12-2002 19:34									#60
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Damnit, they aren't liberals...