28-12-2002 04:30									#1
	Torture of detainees by the US? Support Apolyton

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2607629.stm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Dec25.html

Looks like those who accused the US of unethical treatment of prisoners in the war against terrorism had a point after all.

Personally I think this is a disgrace for the US, and the moral high ground they had is quickly fading away. Not to mention that all this is a blatant violation of international law.

	28-12-2002 05:55									#2
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Troll.

Made them stand for a long time with darkened googles?

Oh, the humanity!!!!

ACK!

	28-12-2002 06:26									#3
	Re: Torture of detainees by the US? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Your acting like this is new news. People have been *****ing about this since the beginning. Where have you been?

	28-12-2002 06:28									#4
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Good links Jaako. This is a deeply disturbing turn of events.

	28-12-2002 06:29									#5
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	28-12-2002 06:37									#6
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Continuation of events, rather.

	28-12-2002 06:38									#7
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*echoes Gibsie*

Turn?!

	28-12-2002 06:40									#8
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I was under the impression that terrorists could stay in a four-star hotel...

	28-12-2002 06:52									#9
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Asher - so because they're terrorists, it's OK to treat them like ****, diobeying international law?

	28-12-2002 06:55									#10
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Where is the torture?

I've read the articles and it sounds just like regular police tactics in getting people to talk to me.

	28-12-2002 06:55									#11
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If they're terrorists I honestly don't give a **** what happens to them.

And international law is a joke when you're talking about the US.

And once people actually prove people are being tortured, maybe more people will care.

When the same activist groups cry about how all these terrorists are being tortured, people act surprised when America collectively rolls their eyes and ignores it.

	28-12-2002 06:58									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Where is the torture? I've read the articles and it sounds just like regular police tactics in getting people to talk to me.

I wasn't even relating to the main article, just Asher's point that it doesn't matter how terrorists are treated. I'd say that keeping people in little cages and forcing them to stand blinded in heavy full body suits in Cuban heat is pretty barbaric though.

And Asher, the term 'terrorist' could be used to describe almost anyone who opposes a government if they wished.

	28-12-2002 07:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And once people actually prove people are being tortured, maybe more people will care. When the same activist groups cry about how all these terrorists are being tortured, people act surprised when America collectively rolls their eyes and ignores it.

Actually over here the newspapers had pictures of it all over the front pages. Is that not proof?

	28-12-2002 07:09									#14
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Actually over here the newspapers had pictures of it all over the front pages. Is that not proof?

What pictures?
Are you talking about the transport pictures on the airplane?

quote: And Asher, the term 'terrorist' could be used to describe almost anyone who opposes a government if they wished.

Uh...no...
"terrorist" does not mean someone who opposes a government.

	28-12-2002 07:14									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What pictures? Are you talking about the transport pictures on the airplane?

No, the pictures taken at camp x-ray, of the Muslims being forced to stand in those suits.

quote: Uh...no... "terrorist" does not mean someone who opposes a government.

Well, it covers computer hackers apparently...

	28-12-2002 07:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon No, the pictures taken at camp x-ray, of the Muslims being forced to stand in those suits.

Standing in suits is torture?

quote: Well, it covers computer hackers apparently...

It certainly can, it can cover anyone depending what you're doing with your skills.

For example, if someone hacked into a hospital system and screwed with everyone's records resulting in many deaths, they would be a terrorist..

	28-12-2002 07:24									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Standing in suits is torture?

Read the article. They were full, heavy body suits, in cuban heat, with the wearers unable to see or hear anyone around them. I'd say that counts as torture...

quote: It certainly can, it can cover anyone depending what you're doing with your skills. For example, if someone hacked into a hospital system and screwed with everyone's records resulting in many deaths, they would be a terrorist..

But the people held in Cuba were soldiers, surely - they were fighting an opposing army, not civilians...

	28-12-2002 07:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Read the article. They were full, heavy body suits, in cuban heat, with the wearers unable to see or hear anyone around them. I'd say that counts as torture...

Definitely wouldn't be comfortable but it's hardly torture.

Torture is taking a sledge hammer to your hand to get you to talk.

quote: But the people held in Cuba were soldiers, surely - they were fighting an opposing army, not civilians...

The people held in Cube are Taliban and al Qaeda...They're not all "soldiers", and even then, they're hardly your typical "soldiers" now aren't they...

	28-12-2002 07:36									#19
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I'm sure that you would change your tune if you were submitted to such conditions Ashie.
There is no room for sadistic treatment of other human beings, anywhere, ever, period. Whether or not the Taliban troops were bad people is completely irrelevent. Besides, I would say they were probably no better or worse than the average American solider in that they were simply fighting to protect their homeland.

	28-12-2002 07:40									#20
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monkspider... standing in the heat isn't torture and has never been labeled as such.

	28-12-2002 07:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I'm sure that you would change your tune if you were submitted to such conditions Ashie.

I lived in a house in a valley in California without air conditioning for two years, I know how exhausting and uncomfortable heat can be.

It's still not torture. By red_jon's logic, the Canadian government is torturing our guards who need to stand outside certain government buildings in those ridiculous costumes and hats, not moving for hours on end in the summer heat.

	28-12-2002 07:47									#22
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Imran, it wasn't just standing in heat. As RJ mentioned earlier: "Read the article. They were full, heavy body suits, in cuban heat, with the wearers unable to see or hear anyone around them."
I suppose it depends on your level of compassion for fellow human beings, but I think that this can objectively seen as a form of torture, by nearly any standards. Without question, this removes any last remnants of "humanity" that world may have mistakenly believed the United States to possess.

	28-12-2002 07:49									#23
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monkspider, that isn't torture by ANY standards. Its routine to attempt to break down the spirit in interrogation.

REAL torture should not be done, but I don't see any of that here.

	28-12-2002 08:20									#24
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I hate to see things like this going on, but if it can help save American lives and hurt Al Queda then I am for it.

	28-12-2002 08:23									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui monkspider, that isn't torture by ANY standards. Its routine to attempt to break down the spirit in interrogation. REAL torture should not be done, but I don't see any of that here.

5 entries found for torture.
tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.

Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
Something causing severe pain or anguish.

Sounds like torture to me....

quote: I hate to see things like this going on, but if it can help save American lives and hurt Al Queda then I am for it.

It could easily be used for propaganda:

"Look at what evil Americans do to our myarters: < picture > Join the fight against the American and Israeli infidels! Blah blah blah blah blah....."

That would, considering the state of "love for America" in the middle east, hurt America and help Al Qaeda.

	28-12-2002 08:33									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 5 entries found for torture. tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr) n. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense. Something causing severe pain or anguish. Sounds like torture to me....

Perhaps you should pay close attention to the qualifiers I've bolded for you.

	28-12-2002 08:35									#27
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"
"Look at what evil Americans do to our myarters: < picture > Join the fight against the American and Israeli infidels! Blah blah blah blah blah.....""

If they see those people as martyers they aren't going to be with us anyway.

And by the way Tassadar Russia has been pretty brutal too in it's dealings with Islamic militants in Chechnya.

	28-12-2002 08:38									#28
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quote: If they see those people as martyers they aren't going to be with us anyway.

That comment is so full of ignorance I see no need to reply.

quote: And by the way Tassadar Russia has been pretty brutal too in it's dealings with Islamic militants in Chechnya.

Though Russia isn't the subject (And is actually a fallacious arguement - red herring. Of course your so full of fallacious arguements that pointing out one would definately not do justice.) I agree with you.

	28-12-2002 08:40									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Perhaps you should pay close attention to the qualifiers I've bolded for you.

1) I imagine that wearing a heavy suite in Cuban heat would be quite a bit of torture.

2) "Severe" depends on the person. Who knows, some of them might not feel any pain at all. Some people might consider sitting down and cozying up to a loved one "severe" pain.

	28-12-2002 08:41									#30
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They utilize these methods because they leave very little in the way of physical evidence. I can imagine that putting someone in these suits is pretty much equivilent to locking them in a metal box in the hot sun, which is generally considered torture.

This was an interesting quote:

"If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job," said one official who has supervised the capture and transfer of accused terrorists. "I don't think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this. That was the whole problem for a long time with the CIA."


Anybody else ever felt this was a problem with the CIA?