28-12-2002 19:34									#61
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	28-12-2002 19:35									#62
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The position they are looks no more uncomfortable than the position in which they would pray.

	28-12-2002 19:36									#63
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Anyone who condone this sort of treatment on another human being is sick in the head, IMO

	28-12-2002 19:39									#64
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Anyone who condone this sort of treatment on another human being is sick in the head, IMO

I'd prefer to see this than have another 3000 Americans killed as a result of not garnering intelligence from these animals.

	28-12-2002 19:39									#65
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Well Pekka, they are calling it the "stress and duress" technique, so I can't think of anything else they would be doing. As for forcing them, I can't see how you can force someone "just a little". Either they make you do something or they don't.
IMO it's all just trying to put something distasteful into politically correct terms.

	28-12-2002 19:43									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's I'd prefer to see this than have another 3000 Americans killed as a result of not garnering intelligence from these animals.

These are soldiers - how much intelligence are they going to have?

I hardly see how these people are animals. These people in particular didn't commit the atrocities of 9/11, many were already a member of the organisation.

I'm no big fan of theirs (obviously I detest their treatment of homosexuals) but if we lower to this level we become nothing but animals ourselves.

	28-12-2002 19:52									#68
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Red_Jon, you too should note that Gitmo (where they didn't keep the prisoners like that for long) isn't the issue here anymore, but the other bases where they can act without observers. Then there's also the matter of giving prisoners out to people who will torture them in the traditional "electric shock to the genitals" way.

But in any case, good job trying to educate Stewie, though the day I see him interested in honest debate is the day hell freezes over.

	28-12-2002 20:00									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Red_Jon, you too should note that Gitmo (where they didn't keep the prisoners like that for long) isn't the issue here anymore, but the other bases where they can act without observers. Then there's also the matter of giving prisoners out to people who will torture them in the traditional "electric shock to the genitals" way.

Well exactly. Of course virtually no attention will be paid to that.

quote: But in any case, good job trying to educate Stewie, though the day I see him interested in honest debate is the day hell freezes over.

Oh, he's just a pathetic little troll. The sad thing is, he seems to honestly believe half the **** he comes out with.

	28-12-2002 22:27									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's I'd prefer to see this than have another 3000 Americans killed as a result of not garnering intelligence from these animals.

And you don't even notice that this is the same way like Taliban make their people think. Think of the enemy as being an animal/monster - everything but not human. Having got this small step you can do anything you want to them without feeling guilty. That's how people don't even bother to try to understand (intellectually) what had to happen that the other became a "terrorist" (US-version)or "imperialist aggressor" (commie-version) or "devils" (Fundi-version) etc.
Viewing the enemy as "animal" is the reason how and why torture and butchering can occur. So you can guess that I think that you have a high potential of commiting such acts.

	28-12-2002 22:38									#71
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quote: Shall we argue about the skin tones of the aerage middle-eastern male? I think it's safe to say it isn't white.

Most Arabs are considered 'Caucasian' in skin tone. So yes, Arabs are white.

quote: Anyone who condone this sort of treatment on another human being is sick in the head, IMO

It looks like an American prision. I see nothing wrong with making them sit facing the outside. Do you?

	28-12-2002 22:49									#72
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Imran, why don't you address my arguments as well...

	28-12-2002 22:55									#73
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Which arguments?

You just seem to be talking to red jon.

	28-12-2002 23:05									#74
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quote: It looks like an American prision. I see nothing wrong with making them sit facing the outside. Do you?

A super-max prison, maybe? I don't see too many maximum prisons caging their prisoners like rabid animals, with hoods over their heads

Is this torture? No. More like abuse. Affording them a minimal amount of dignity and well-being is not giving comfort to them.

	28-12-2002 23:15									#75
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Imran - It just seems to me you're ignoring the serious accusations. You know, the stuff about "stress and duress" techniques, beatings, giving prisoners to be tortured elsewhere and so forth. All that stuff in my earlier posts.

Here are some relevant quotes from the articles that should make it clear that we're talking about something way beyond Gitmo.

quote: Those who refuse to cooperate inside this secret CIA interrogation center are sometimes kept standing or kneeling for hours, in black hoods or spray-painted goggles, according to intelligence specialists familiar with CIA interrogation methods. At times they are held in awkward, painful positions and deprived of sleep with a 24-hour bombardment of lights -- subject to what are known as "stress and duress" techniques.

quote: Some who do not cooperate are turned over -- "rendered," in official parlance -- to foreign intelligence services whose practice of torture has been documented by the U.S. government and human rights organizations.

quote: According to one official who has been directly involved in rendering captives into foreign hands, the understanding is, "We don't kick the [expletive] out of them. We send them to other countries so they can kick the [expletive] out of them."

quote: "If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job," said one official who has supervised the capture and transfer of accused terrorists. "I don't think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this. That was the whole problem for a long time with the CIA."

Edit (one more):

quote: According to Americans with direct knowledge and others who have witnessed the treatment, captives are often "softened up" by MPs and U.S. Army Special Forces troops who beat them up and confine them in tiny rooms. The alleged terrorists are commonly blindfolded and thrown into walls, bound in painful positions, subjected to loud noises and deprived of sleep. The tone of intimidation and fear is the beginning, they said, of a process of piercing a prisoner's resistance.

	28-12-2002 23:32									#76
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I don't think making people stand in an area for a long time is torture. Furthermore handing them over to other intelligence services (I assume you mean Mossad), means they are engaging in torture, not us.

As for your last edit, I haven't heard that at all. Beatings by MPs and bounding them in painful positions? I can't see that being allowed to occur, and I'll need more proof than one article that it is going on.

	28-12-2002 23:53									#77
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You're downplaying it Imran. The accusations are about forcing them to stand in painful positions, with sensory deprivation, and with sleep deprivation.
If such treatment is enough to break someone's will then what the hell else could it be except torture? I'm getting shades of newspeak here.

As for the handing the suspects over to be tortured, I really can't understand how you see the US can avoid responsibility. It's tantamount to saying "I didn't tell him to kill that guy officer, I just gave him a gun".
Explicit instructions are not required for someone to be an accomplice in crime.
It's also a violation of international law, http://193.194.138.190/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

From article 3,

quote: 1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

	29-12-2002 00:36									#78
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I think we are going about this the wrong way. These guys are men, are they not? They haven't been with a woman for a year. They have sacrificed much for Allah. He owes them time with a beautiful, but pure, lady. Not so?

But they are also Islamic fundamentalists who believe they will go to hell if they see a woman naked.

So, why don't we put a beautiful, but fully clothed stripper in front of one of these Islamic fundamentalists and threaten him with a striptease unless he talks! Better yet, tell him that if he talks he can have her for the whole night, privately.

What do you think will happen? Will the war of human nature vs. the love of Allah tear him apart? Will he talk to avoid the ultimate degredation of seeing the woman naked? Will he talk to be with the woman for the whole night?

Ah, the torture!

	29-12-2002 03:38									#79
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This thread demeans real victims of torture.

	29-12-2002 03:58									#80
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quote: I assume you mean Mossad

why would Mossad take care of Afghani prisoners?
there are also the people of Hamid Kharzai. it will take decades till someone will dig out the bodies.

	29-12-2002 04:29									#81
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc This thread demeans real victims of torture.

That's exceptionally low for you, DD.

**** you.

	29-12-2002 05:23									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's The position they are looks no more uncomfortable than the position in which they would pray.

When you are put in the stress position, no position is comfortable. If you try to move to release the pressure on one part of the body, then another bit is strained and that bit is now extremely painful instead. You can release the pressure if you go on your side IIRC but of course as soon as you do that they'll shift you right back into the stress position once again, possibly beating the crap out of you for doing so ( as the Iraqis did to POWs during the gulf war ).

Even with simple body suits causing heat strokes and forced positions, you are torturing the individual. Thrumb screws and the rack are torture but crude torture. Modern day techniques doesn't require you to beat the individual to a pulp to be torture.

What amuses me here is how far some people will go to blindfold themselves to the truth. When pretty much the whole civilised world criticised America for what was happening at Gitmo, still some people ignored it.

Now those same people are saying "Yes of course Bush is right for wanting to attack Iraq & North Korea! He can't be wrong! We are on the side of good, you're either with us or against us! Anyone disagreeing with us must be evil too!"

I love the way that they band people into the us or them category - even someone who disagrees slightly is instantly one of them and thus ignored & in the wrong.

Finally, anyone think Bush is copying other political leaders of the past and using external aggression as a way to distract the American people away from internal problems by misdirecting their attention elsewhere? e.g. Mussolini attacking Ethiopa back in ~1936 ( note : not implying political motive apart from the external aggression one - i.e. not saying Bush fascist ).

	29-12-2002 06:46									#83
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Asher - so because they're terrorists, it's OK to treat them like ****, diobeying international law?

Jon these boys would kill you in a second if they had a chance and be happy that they did and you want to treat them as a good O'boys.

	29-12-2002 06:51									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I lived in a house in a valley in California without air conditioning for two years, I know how exhausting and uncomfortable heat can be. It's still not torture. By red_jon's logic, the Canadian government is torturing our guards who need to stand outside certain government buildings in those ridiculous costumes and hats, not moving for hours on end in the summer heat.

I was born in Modesto and live 10 south until I was 18 without air. It was no big deal.

	29-12-2002 06:55									#85
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quote: I was born in Modesto and live 10 south until I was 18 without air. It was no big deal.

	29-12-2002 07:03									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Edan

And yes I had to work in the heat also. Cleaning a cow barn, moving hay etc.

	29-12-2002 07:05									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph And yes I had to work in the heat also. Cleaning a cow barn, moving hay etc.

Wow. Although I guess holding your breath for 18 years straight probably prevents getting the smell of the cows.

	29-12-2002 07:46									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Wow. Although I guess holding your breath for 18 years straight probably prevents getting the smell of the cows.

Actually you never smell it because you grow up with it every day. Turlock High did not have air either and in May we would get out at 2:30 instead of 3:10.
I love growing up in the country instead of a city. But hated miking cows, so I went into the service (Navy) and never when back.

	29-12-2002 07:54									#89
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Just in case you didn't get my joke, it was that you stated that you lived without air (as apposed to air conditioning)

	29-12-2002 08:21									#90
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I think if the Al Qaida were true prisoners of war, we might have a problem with the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisioners of War. Here is the full Art. 17 of that convention, with relevant portions highlighted:

"Article 17

Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information. If he wilfully infringes this rule, he may render himself liable to a restriction of the privileges accorded to his rank or status.

Each Party to a conflict is required to furnish the persons under its jurisdiction who are liable to become prisoners of war, with an identity card showing the owner's surname, first names, rank, army, regimental, personal or serial number or equivalent information, and date of birth. The identity card may, furthermore, bear the signature or the fingerprints, or both, of the owner, and may bear, as well, any other information the Party to the conflict may wish to add concerning persons belonging to its armed forces. As far as possible the card shall measure 6.5 x 10 cm. and shall be issued in duplicate. The identity card shall be shown by the prisoner of war upon demand, but may in no case be taken away from him.

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

Prisoners of war who, owing to their physical or mental condition, are unable to state their identity, shall be handed over to the medical service. The identity of such prisoners shall be established by all possible means, subject to the provisions of the preceding paragraph.

The questioning of prisoners of war shall be carried out in a language which they understand."