03-01-2003 22:32									#31
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Agreed.

I say continue north, to not do so would just be asking them to take atvantage of us. .

	03-01-2003 22:34									#32
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North with the northernmost two at least, not sure about our third guy (slash? I don't have access to the screenshot right now). He could either shadow the incoming Voxians (by hanging out on our mountains) or charge north as well.

-Arrian

	03-01-2003 22:34									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I was wondering one thing, but it was too late to comment on the proposal sent to Vox: so far they were going West, not South. We might have given them the impression that West as little, and we are South. This could also signify they are rather East, and not North. DeepO

Good insight DeepO; we should move both East and North.

	03-01-2003 22:44									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Dominae, how experienced are you with settler pumps? In a pattern ranging from size five to size six (building a settler when it would hit size seven), EotS can churn out a settler every five turns given sufficient good tiles. In a pattern ranging from size two to size four, it would take significantly longer. Take even one turn longer per settler and every two turns, you lose back the time required to build a worker. And the kind of pattern you're talking about would almost certainly take at least two extra turns per settler.

In full settler/worker pump mode, the ratio for workers vs. settlers in EotS is two and a half workers per settler, since at size 5, workers can build in two turns while settlers take five turns. So the real question is whether a settler is worth more or less than the two and a half workers would be.

Getting #3 going as a settler pump as quickly as possible requires at least one worker, and probably the part-time attention of a second to chop and either irrigate or mne the game tile. Beyond that, some testing would be worthwhile. I'd be interested to see what your best effort playing out the test scenario without the extra workers is and compare it with what I can do with the extra workers. (And keep in mind that we're not just concerned with finishing REXing quickly but also with production.) I do know that in SP, I try to keep my number of workers high enough that I don't work many unimproved tiles.

Nathan

	03-01-2003 22:57									#35
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Moving Hack 4-4 would let him see if either Voxian warrior tries to come south into our territory, and he could still withdraw to EotS in time to aid its defense (and we can have a second warrior in Hurricane by the time the Voxians get there). Moving Slash and Grog north to turn up the pressure a little on Vox would probably be a good idea.

Nathan

	03-01-2003 23:00									#36
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By the way, I don't agree with blocking the isthmus. We're better off proceeding into Vox's territory and finding out more about it (and making contact with whoever might be beyond, if anyone). They already have exploring units south of the chokepoint, so blocking it now would be closing the barn door after the horses got out.

Nathan

	03-01-2003 23:00									#37
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Okay, something else. If we start with a warrior in Hurricane, it should be finished in 5 turns. This will not be enough for Will the wanderer to reach Hurricane. So, it is safe to move Ouch now, and give our 3 other exploring warriors some support.

If so, move Ouch to the Spinebreaker mountains, right in the middle. from the tile NW of the first SG, we can see all incoming traffic, and intercept it if needed.

DeepO

	03-01-2003 23:01									#38
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Nathan, did you keep in mind, that the foodbox is emptied everytime the city grows? If we work on 2 irrigated fps, we make 4 surplus. This means we need 2x3=6 turns to get the growth for a settler. To be faster, we must work on 3 irrigated floodplains.

- Size 5: 3 irrigated floodplains, 2 irrigated fur plains: 5 surplus, 5 shields: 2 turn worker pump.

- Size 5-6: 3 irrigated floodplains, first 2, later 3 irrigated fur plains: 5 surplus, 2x5 + 3x7: 5 turn settler pump, after which the foodbox is half filled again.

	03-01-2003 23:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Their diplomatic response was confusing. I don't think they will care about our wish. What to do with our warriors? If you ask me, we proceed north. I don't want them to make us look like fools.

To be fair, they did play their turn, before we got the message trough IRC..

Keep going north, if we can see on of their real city borders, this could give us an idea on have time we have for:
1. How/if/..when then could attack us
2. how/if/when/... we can expand/settle/...

	03-01-2003 23:04									#40
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Better yet, move Ouch to where Nathan wants Hack (4-4). This should leave Grog for Northern or Eastern exploration, and still give Hack and Slash to block the isthmus (Name please! I hate typing that word ) They should be able to block or hinder any extra force, so we can, if it needs to be, deal with the Voxian warriors that are in our territory.

DeepO

	03-01-2003 23:07									#41
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Hurricane: No shielded grassland or irrigated plains available. If we build warrior, it's there in 4 turns (3 forest with furs, 1 unshielded river grassland for 1 more food).

	03-01-2003 23:09									#42
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Hmm... did they read our message before sending their turn, not replying until after sending their turn? This would be a big difference. Otherwise me might want to halt our exploration one turn, to see what they are doing.

But move Slash onto the mountains anyhow, technically speaking, he is not our Northernmost guy (which, btw, can also be said from Tim: he is not Vox' Southernmost guy.)

DeepO

[Edit: unclear sentence corrected]

Last edited by DeepO on 03-01-2003 at 23:16

	03-01-2003 23:11									#43
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Hurricane: still largely on time, I'd say. Perhaps there is some better building path to follow, but we should think about our military needs as well, and right now, we can use an extra warrior (even if we got 5 of them already)

DeepO

	03-01-2003 23:13									#44
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Oh, if you would move Ouch, and set Hurricane to the normal (not forested) grassland, we don't lose anything, and can still undo the situation next turn. It won't make any difference by undoing it then, whereas not moving now can cost us a turn.

DeepO

	03-01-2003 23:13									#45
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Btw I don't agree with Nathan, blocking the isthmus makes sense. If they want to attack us prior to mapmaking, they have to declare war earlier and give us more time to prepare. At least we should leave one warrior there to monitor the isthmus and to report large troop movements.

I'd say, we proceed N with Grog, leave Slash at the isthmus hill and shadow with Hack and Ouch the 2 Voxians. Hurricane has a new defender in 4 turns.

Name proposal for the isthmus: Wasp Waist (sounds weird), or Bee Waist.

	03-01-2003 23:18									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Nathan, did you keep in mind, that the foodbox is emptied everytime the city grows? If we work on 2 irrigated fps, we make 4 surplus. This means we need 2x3=6 turns to get the growth for a settler. To be faster, we must work on 3 irrigated floodplains. - Size 5: 3 irrigated floodplains, 2 irrigated fur plains: 5 surplus, 5 shields: 2 turn worker pump. - Size 5-6: 3 irrigated floodplains, first 2, later 3 irrigated fur plains: 5 surplus, 2x5 + 3x7: 5 turn settler pump, after which the foodbox is half filled again.

The catch to the "the foodbox is half filled again" idea is that growing past size six messes things up. Going from size 7 to size 8 costs too much food, so we always end up at size 5 after the settler is finished. Thus, I prefer to reduce the number of FPs used during one leg of growth to reduce the risk of disease slightly. Also, with enough irrigated plains and/or mined grasslands, that kind of technique would reduce the number of furs EotS needs to work for five-turn settler production, letting Hurricane make more use of the furs.

Nathan

	03-01-2003 23:18									#47
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Sounds good, Sir Ralph, with the only problem that if Vox sees us move, while we asked to halt exploration, they could take it the wrong way.

DeepO

	03-01-2003 23:21									#48
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My plans:

Grog, Slash and Ouch 8.
Hack 4.

Build Hurricane, start warrior at unshielded grassland with river.

Set science to 90% (11 beakers) makes Pottery in 4 turns (40 beakers left). 10 beakers is not possible (80% gives only 9), so we have to adjust it in the last turn.

EotS has 35 shields and makes 5 (1 irrigated floodplain, 2 irrigated fur plains). Will grow next time in 7 turns.

30 minutes for objections. Turn will be played 1900 GMT (2pm Apolyton time/EST) sharp.

	03-01-2003 23:25									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Set science to 90% (11 beakers) makes Pottery in 4 turns (40 beakers left). 10 beakers is not possible (80% gives only 9), so we have to adjust it in the last turn.

Sounds good, except that we should be able to adjust the slider in 2 turns, not in 3. But that won't matter. In 3 turns, we will have to adjust again, I think, as EotS grows in between.

DeepO

	03-01-2003 23:27									#50
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EotS grows in 7 turns (3 surplus). It just grew this turn.

	03-01-2003 23:28									#51
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sounds good to me (I'm sure everyone was wating for my approval )

I can't wait to see that second city on the screen shot.

	03-01-2003 23:29									#52
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Ah, sorry. in 2 turns it is then

DeepO

	03-01-2003 23:29									#53
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Ah, I forgot to say, with 90% science we make +1 gold. This fills our cash reserve a bit. We have 2 freebie units left, till we pay upkeep again.

	03-01-2003 23:30									#54
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How about "Neck of Fate" for the isthmus?

Based on 6x3+2=20, we can have one turn where EotS works a fur forest instead of both irrigated furs. Doing that one turn and then having Hurricane move to a fur forest for the next two before switching to the grassland tile for growth would give us our warrior in four turns at a cost of only one turn on pop growth. But I wouldn't want to compromise growth any more pursuing the warrior after that. (EotS would work both irrigated furs and one FP after that first turn.)

I really don't like moving Ouch because I want both cities able to have two warriors if Vox does decide to attack.

Nathan

	03-01-2003 23:35									#55
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I think, if we shadow them with Hack and Ouch and do it well (like a defender in soccer: always between the attacker and the goal), they won't consider to attack, and even if they did, we'd have 2 warriors in every city instantly.

	03-01-2003 23:37									#56
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Don't know about that last point, Nathan. They will probably not head straight to our cities as they dn't know where they are, and by the they come near, we should be able to have moved our shadowwarriors home as well. For the moment we don't need Ouch...

BTW: it may not be needed to sacrifice any growth on this extra warrior: we have plenty of time before we need him, even in the worst case. The only real problem here are barbs.

DeepO

	03-01-2003 23:37									#57
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quote: Hmm... did they read our message before sending their turn, not replying until after sending their turn?

I know Dissidents' pm was unread, when they allready had played their turn.. (can't say the same for MMS who sent a PM to Betahound earlier).

quote: Sounds good, Sir Ralph, with the only problem that if Vox sees us move, while we asked to halt exploration, they could take it the wrong way. DeepO

As long as they don't respond, there's no reason to stop ourself and waste a move..
This even speed up their answer IMHO, or at least agreeing to hold both armies on wasps beach

	03-01-2003 23:38									#58
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I like "neck of fate" best of the names I've heard .

	03-01-2003 23:38									#59
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double post

	03-01-2003 23:40									#60
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I was wondering on "Cape Horn (of abundance)" down South. the ishtmus... don't know. WW is easy to abreviate, and I'm lazy

DeepO