04-01-2003 01:53									#91
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Arrian: Next city should go South, while North gets roaded. We have little to gain from settling site #1 (in the desert of tears) fast, as there won't be any production. #3 OTOH will certainly be helped if it is a few turns faster. If we get a road up North, we will be able to settle cities there fast if we see Vox moving in.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 01:56									#92
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MSS: we didn't decide to build the pyramids, certainly not in EotS. It's a prebuild for a granary, so that we can start building settlers at double speed, starting in 5 turns from now.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 02:01									#93
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btw Deepo, if we want to control forest cut bonusses couldn't we just play around with the wonders somewhat...?

	04-01-2003 02:03									#94
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Whoa! I missed a big disucssion here.

Concerning Settler/Workers pumps, I've used them before as you describe Nathan, but you seem to be more confident with them than I am. If you can build Workers in Eye in between Settlers and not lose any time, Food or Production (especially time!), great!

Bah, this is too theoretical, I might as well get my hands dirty...Nathan, DeepO, how about we all perform different test runs from the current turn and compare how far we are along in say 40 or so turns? I will concentrate on Settlers, and you two could concentrate on your own plans (assuming they are somewhat different). Things are getting complex enough now that exhaustive testing is impossible. By using 3 test scenarios we should get a good idea of what is best, or at least obtain something concrete to debate with.

Yes, I know I'm not an Economist, but with your permissions I would like to help out for a bit. This is more interesting than I thought it would be and I need something to do before school gets into full swing.

Concerning Warriors, I believe the safest choice is to shadow their units and wander around the isthmus with Grog (but not too far). Planning to defend against an attack by putting 2 Warriors in all our cities is excessive at this point, and strains our economic resources. We should be fine.

Next city should go to the site 2-1-2 from Eye of the Storm, IMO.


Dominae

	04-01-2003 02:06									#95
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO MSS: we didn't decide to build the pyramids, certainly not in EotS. It's a prebuild for a granary, so that we can start building settlers at double speed, starting in 5 turns from now. DeepO

Thanks for the clarfication. I have been missing some of the finer points of our statregy as I have been kinda busy as FAM of the SP Demo game.

Off topic-
My term is up in a couple of weeks and I do not intend to fill another position. I would rather move forward and be more active here.

BTW Shiber, I will back you up as FAM in that game. If you need a deputy, I could help...

Mss

	04-01-2003 02:07									#96
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Also, sorry to point something out that cannot be changed, but our Worker should probably have gone to improve the tile just NW of its current location. That tile could be shared by two cities in the future (the Gold one and the Desert of Tears one), and we would have made roading to those easier. Economy of movement is very important for Workers early on.


Dominae

	04-01-2003 02:25									#97
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quote: Originally posted by alva btw Deepo, if we want to control forest cut bonusses couldn't we just play around with the wonders somewhat...?

It will certainly be interesting to try out whether building a pyramids for 1 turn in EotS moves the shields to Hurricane, I'm not sure whether it is the wonder in Hurricane, or simply the cultural border of EotS which prevented the chopped shields to go to EotS. But it could cerrtainly be true... which would be an awesome discovery! You got me there, Alva: I was only thinking in one direction: shields to EotS. But the other way could also be possible...

DeepO

	04-01-2003 02:27									#98
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When I get a chance (may not be until tomorrow), I'm going to see whether it's practical to switch Hurricane to a wonder at strategic times and use chops to build back-to-back-to-back settlers in EotS (buying a little time to deal with tile competition in the process). Otherwise, I was thinking in terms of using the chops to speed up a barracks in Hurricane so it can serve as our major early unit factory. (In my tests, both remaining chops of shared fur tiles go to Hurricane if it's not building a wonder.)

I want Site #3 as our third city, and I'm thinking it would be good to build a granary and then a temple and use it as a second settler/worker pump (although it will take quite a while to get it going). The temple is to help deal with unhappiness since it's a low-wealth location not well suited to taking advantage of the lux slider (and of course for a general cultural benefit).

Dominae, you have my blessing and my thanks to run experiments to see how your preferred economic strategy works. I certainly meddle enough in diplomatic matters even though it's not one of my official areas. And I'll be interested to see how your results compare with mine over the long haul.

Nathan

	04-01-2003 02:31									#99
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Dominae: do you have a scenario / save with the horses on the right place? If so, I'll certainly want to give it a go, and see where I end. But do make a believeable run, with some added troops for Vox. Oh, and if possible, set research to 0 after pottery, so we have a better idea on how much commerce is generated.

BTW, I'm not an economist either, at least not officially. I'm a diplomat, and still hesitation on my other choice But other then the influence of the heads and certain specialised discussions, I don't see such a segragation in our team... which is not that bad, as long as we keep it working.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 02:34									#100
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I must I didn't know this either until did that Pyramid test. I allways assumed the shields went
1.to the most nearby city
2. eugh random
never thought it could be culture or something else (wonder) that would influence this mechanism.
(might try this later)

	04-01-2003 02:36									#101
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Dominae, you have my blessing and my thanks to run experiments to see how your preferred economic strategy works. I certainly meddle enough in diplomatic matters even though it's not one of my official areas. And I'll be interested to see how your results compare with mine over the long haul.

Thanks! I'll post my results here when I'm done, and send screenshots if you want them (might be necessary). My strategy is simple: maximize Settler output. We'll see if this gets us further ahead than our current plans.

Concerning Forest-chopping, in a test I ran yesterday, I set up production such that both Eye and Hurricane would benefit from the 10 Shields. Eye got one chop to help with a Settler, and Hurricane got one to hurry a Barracks. This makes things a little less focused, but I did not know about the Wonder effect then.


Dominae

	04-01-2003 02:37									#102
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay (In my tests, both remaining chops of shared fur tiles go to Hurricane if it's not building a wonder.)

Well, no need to test whether wonderbuilding will prevent chops to go to Hurricane, I tested that before. How this can be used is up to you however, but perhaps the chops + all fps can do wonders to faster settler building.

quote: I want Site #3 as our third city, and I'm thinking it would be good to build a granary and then a temple and use it as a second settler/worker pump (although it will take quite a while to get it going). The temple is to help deal with unhappiness since it's a low-wealth location not well suited to taking advantage of the lux slider (and of course for a general cultural benefit).

Hmmm... we got 2 forests there... it will take a long time to get going. Wouldn't a granary be enough, suplemented with a warrior, and some lux? By the time you build another temple, you could also build a settler which settles an incense... same effect for that moment.

Hear me, advocating not to build culture

DeepO

	04-01-2003 02:41									#103
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Hmmm... Maybe we shouldn't get too excited with the wonder-prevents-chops-going-the-wrong-way strat... what if it was random? Dominae, if you saw it going once to Hurricane, once to EotS (with Hurricane at the same spot), there is some random effect involved... Did anyone see it go the wrong way with the pyramid tests? (I mean, did anyone lose the shields to Hurricane while the pyramids were building?)

DeepO

	04-01-2003 02:42									#104
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If a Temple is not necessary in Eye, it should not be necessary in the city at site 3, right?


Dominae

	04-01-2003 02:45									#105
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Not necessarily, EotS has more commerce (river), which we could use with the lux slider more effeciently. I'm not certain on how much slider we'll need (I guess only when reaching size 6 in EotS, if we get the fur connected)

DeepO

	04-01-2003 02:45									#106
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DeepO, the game may simply count up the number of cities that share the Forest-tile, substract the ones that are producing a Wonder (and Wealth?), and randomly select between the remaining ones. This makes sense and seems to fit our observations.


Dominae

	04-01-2003 02:49									#107
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I guess someone needs to update Alva's scenario to reflect our additional knowledge of the world, both additional tiles and horses. Then someone (either the same someone or a different one) needs to play to our current position and make a save available as a basis for experiments. (Adding an extra settler to the scenario and resetting our starting gold to 20 to pay for it should give a very close approximation financially.) I could do all this myself, but likely not until tomorrow, and someone else might be able to get to it sooner. By the way, let's make the barbarians sedantary this time so our results aren't polluted by variations in losses to barbarians and in gold from raiding barbarian camps.

Nathan

	04-01-2003 02:51									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae DeepO, the game may simply count up the number of cities that share the Forest-tile, substract the ones that are producing a Wonder (and Wealth?), and randomly select between the remaining ones. This makes sense and seems to fit our observations.

I hope it is like this, which was what I meant by "some random effect". But I guess we need more tests to see if it really wasn't random... so far I'm the only one who reported that with a pyramids build, no shields were lost. After playing with Civ3 formulae before, I got a bit more cautious

DeepO

	04-01-2003 02:53									#109
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I'm willing to change the scenario, but have to warn that I've yet to open the editor, so if anyone else could do it: please! It will certainly be easier...

DeepO

	04-01-2003 03:06									#110
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quote: so far I'm the only one who reported that with a pyramids build, no shields were lost. After playing with Civ3 formulae before, I got a bit more cautious

nope, noticed the same thing

	04-01-2003 03:08									#111
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I'll do it. I have some experience with the editor, just not with what we're doing specifically. Basically you create a scenario with the revealed map so far, and play the game up to the current turn? Is it possible to "gift" yourself Settlers and stuff in-game?


Dominae

	04-01-2003 03:08									#112
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I'm ok adding a few tiles, but setting up a scenario...
takes me 15min just to set the active player

	04-01-2003 03:12									#113
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Dominae (or alva): just adding the settler and 20 gold from the start on the updated land (with horses!) should work, IIRC. After that, playing to our turn, scouting the land, and end up with building Hurricane this turn should be tedious, but relatively easy...

DeepO

	04-01-2003 03:13									#114
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Under normal circumstances, my experience is that if a tile is right next to one city but not the other, chops invariably go to the city next door. It may very possibly be random when a tile is two away from both, although I have a fairly strong hypothesis (tested almost enough for me to regard it as a theory) that if one city has a laborer working the tile in such instances, the chop automatically goes to that city. My own results in our test scenario invariably end up with the chop benefitting Hurricane, but that may just be because my behavior is too consistent to throw the RNG off. (We might want to turn off Preserve Random Seed for our testing.)

Regarding the temple in #3, the big question is whether we can build an incense city and the roads to it (don't forget about those) early enough to eliminate the need for the temple without unacceptably compromising our situation elsewhere. If so, I agree that that's a better option. If not, at least #3's bigger size after it finishes a temple would increase its production to help make up for lost time (assuming an adequate number of tile improvements).

Nathan

	04-01-2003 03:15									#115
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I hope it is like this, which was what I meant by "some random effect". But I guess we need more tests to see if it really wasn't random... so far I'm the only one who reported that with a pyramids build, no shields were lost.

My experience was the same: no shields lost. And all my experience tells me that one of those chops would definitely have gone to Hurricane had it not been working on the Pyramids (since one of the furs is adjacent to Hurricane but not EotS).

Nathan

	04-01-2003 03:30									#116
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hmmm, look what I found....

quote: Originally posted by Eli What are the tactics for fighting with slow units vs fast ones(and fast vs slow) in the first half of the Ancient Age? I'm mainly interested in UU wars like Legions or Immortals vs Mounted Warriors, War Chariots, and others. But this should also apply to regular units like the Swordsmen, Horsemen and Chariots.

	04-01-2003 03:40									#117
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quote: Originally posted by alva hmmm, look what I found....

Ha! I dare you to answer his post, with something like: "Fast-movers always trump slow-movers in the Ancient age, especially in UU versus UU battles".




Dominae

	04-01-2003 03:44									#118
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Quick question: can a Bonus Grassland tile have Wheat on it? The editor allows this, but maybe the map generator never allows it.


Dominae

	04-01-2003 03:45									#119
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quote: Ha! I dare you to answer his post, with something like: "Fast-movers always trump slow-movers in the Ancient age, especially in UU versus UU battles".

in fact, I wanted to post something in GS roleplay fashion.
I decided against it in the and see if Eli will post in that thread again...
(allthough this doesn't mean off-course they are preparing for war, it does gives us a hint of their capabilities...to seek that kind of advice on a public forum??? )

	04-01-2003 03:55									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Quick question: can a Bonus Grassland tile have Wheat on it? The editor allows this, but maybe the map generator never allows it.

To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen a bonus grassland with something else on it in a regular game. But the editor doesn't care whether an underlying grassland is (or will be after a forest is chopped) a bonus one when deciding whether you can put something else there. Actually, one thing that really annoys me in the test scenario is that the grassland under the game hill by "3" is a bonus one where (if I'm right) it cannot possibly be such in the real game.

Nathan