04-01-2003 04:09									#121
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Yeah, when I ran my test, the cities to the South seemed a little too good to be true. I've touched up the map and updated it to 2900BC.


Dominae

	04-01-2003 04:12									#122
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I was tempted to post in Elis thread, but I won't. Guess the blockade of the isthmus wins importance. Note, if they got through, they have a wonderful approach route along the Spinebreaker Mountains, where they are not even vulnerable to War Chariot ambushes. We should think about alternatives to WCs, for this case. Swordsmen would be nice. We could try to get Bronze Working for The Wheel from Vox Controli, and research Iron Working next.

	04-01-2003 04:19									#123
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Sir Ralph, could you send me a screenshot of Eye's city view as of 2900BC?

a*_*petryk*@*hotmail*.*com (just remove asterixes)

Swordsmen are a good idea, but we could potentially get Iron Working from Vox. I think we should wait to see what happens diplomatically before researching it.


Dominae

	04-01-2003 04:25									#124
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We can't get IW if we haven't BW yet, and I doubt that they'll give us IW for Pottery, if the first deal (BW/Wheel) is done. If ever.

I will send you the shot, although I have none, so I have to replay the turn.

	04-01-2003 04:26									#125
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quote: I was tempted to post in Elis thread, but I won't. Guess the blockade of the isthmus wins importance. Note, if they got through, they have a wonderful approach route along the Spinebreaker Mountains,

I must say i did make me laugh..(just in an overall sportive kind of way...)
My first reaction was just post a couple off smileys, but I think we should see how that thread evolves.., I sure am gonna keep an eye on it

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced they really, really need to be stopped..
Even if they return now, we can still poke around abit beyond neck. With those hill, who knows what we will see.

	04-01-2003 06:01									#126
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Careful in posting in that thread! Already, it gives too much information to other teams, if they see it. Argh.... if they wanted to know, why didn't they just PMed some of us, most of the normal responders are in GS anyway.

Pyramids / chopped shields: I haven't noticed it ever before, so could this be one of those 'small' improvements made with PTW? I also suspected it had something to do with worker allocation, but in this case, none of the citizens was working the forests I cut. Of course, if all of us moved the worker in the most logical way possible (I doubt that I did), and did everything else the same, we should end up with the same random seed as well... quite exotic, but we need more tests to be sure.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 06:09									#127
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As to Eli's question: maybe we should PM him, with a response we normally would post on the board. Something like:

quote: fastmovers will always be better on defense, as they see slowies coming, and get the first shot on them, when slowmovers need to move into the open, vulnerable to attack, one turn before they actually hit something. Fastmovers are better on offense too, but generally have worse odds to attack (WC against fortified spear), and are vulnerable for counterattacks, albeit one turn later then slowmovers would (i.e. after they did the damage they set out to do). We would hate needing to fight a war, we think our WCs could defend our territory easily, but we see no point in attacking a tribe that could be much more benfecial in mutual tech trades.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 06:10									#128
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Of course, if all of us moved the worker in the most logical way possible (I doubt that I did), and did everything else the same, we should end up with the same random seed as well... quite exotic, but we need more tests to be sure.

You're forgetting that the RNG also has to deal with barbarian camp placement. Change where the warriors go and you change where barbarian camps might show up a few turns later, and that can change the rolls you get in your turn. (I used that technique when a test run kept running up against disease at a certain point: if I went back far enough and had my warriors all come back toward home so more tiles presumably remained available for possible barbs, I didn't get hit by disease anymore.) So there would have to be more similarity than just worker movements for "preserve random seed" to account for getting the same results.

Nathan

	04-01-2003 06:28									#129
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DeepO, your answer is missing a critical element (whether by accident or deliberately). Under the right road conditions while defending a city, fast-movers' attack advantage largely disappears because slow-movers who can take advantage of roads are faster than fast-movers who can't. The only way the fast-movers can get through to launch their attack is if they have enough local numerical superiority to withstand the preemptive strike against them and overwhelm the enemy with a counterattack. (Although a lot of the losers in the original attack can get away if the attackers outnumber the defenders, thanks to the possibility of retreat.)

Nathan

	04-01-2003 06:46									#130
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Oh, I know I missed that argument, but wanted to colour it a little. Besides, the main thing here is that we can't reach them on mountains and through jungle, I'm not going to tell them that if they act fast, they are superiour to us with archers.

But what about the idea to answer him in a PM?

Re: preserve random seed: like I said, it would be very exotic... barb camps add to that, but I really can't imagine I would have made the same moves... I remember I had to go back one move, because I made the wrong choice, and was too lazy to reload. I miss the true testing spirit of the economical scholia, certainly when at that time I was going to only proof the point that if we would be going for the pyramids, it pays to add more workers... when I ran that test, we were not going to build the pyramids anyway.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 06:53									#131
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quote: But what about the idea to answer him in a PM?

hmm, tough one..
Not the info itself, but the message we send.

	04-01-2003 07:10									#132
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Well, we can ask him to edit his thread, as it gives away to everyone who is watching that the two of us met. As far as I know, we're the only ones with a fast moving ancient UU.

And I don't mind answering him, even if the actual answer might be something that needs to be tweaked.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 07:28									#133
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quote: Well, we can ask him to edit his thread, as it gives away to everyone who is watching that the two of us met. As far as I know, we're the only ones with a fast moving ancient UU.

You know, that hadn't even sunk in yet...

I'm not sure many peeps would jump to that conclusion, it is possible..

	04-01-2003 07:42									#134
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One thing I learned a long time ago: never underestimate what crazy ideas a whole bunch of people can come up with. How many people are active in this demogame? At least over 50... chances are at least one of them has figured it out already. I would certainly assume it.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 07:45									#135
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Should we begin posting misinformation?


Dominae

	04-01-2003 07:48									#136
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quote: Should we begin posting misinformation?

I don't think we can do that on a public non PTWdemo forum

	04-01-2003 07:51									#137
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Nah... certainly not when it would further arouse suspicion

DeepO

	04-01-2003 07:55									#138
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In theory, we could discuss something like the merits of trying to go up against UUs with a 3-point defense with WCs. But would anyone really buy the idea that we can't handle such issues privately if they have to do with this game?

Nathan