14-01-2003 16:04									#61
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More to Gnu :
The 20% figure is incorrect because of the birth rates. 50% of the Arabs are under age 18 so they cant vote. Percentage wise the Jewish population is older, so it's not exactly 20%(19% actually) but more around the 13-14%.

	14-01-2003 16:22									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel cute. but I don't see real solutions. Do you really believe that Israel alone can make an end to the violence? It takes two for peace, it takes one for war, no matter who do you believe is the MAIN cause of violence, It's obvious that there is violence from both sides.

Of course. I donīt question that in any way. But someone has to start. It might as well be Israel. If Israel alleviates the restrictions set on palestinian villages and generally makes it more pleasant for the palestinians, much of the violence will stop I think. There will always be religious fanatics, but you donīt have to give them so much for free (as it is now).

There will also have to be some sort of Israeli-Palestinian joint venture in supressing violence from groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the settlers (and their supporters).

A safer Israel and better living conditions for the palestinians on occupied territory will benefit everyone (except for the most bloodthirsty fanatic Palestinians and Israelis) . Donīt you agree?

Well, time for lunch.

	14-01-2003 16:22									#63
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erm, no Eli. Arab birth rates in Israel are overestimated.

	14-01-2003 16:26									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel A funny vote about Hadash, and it's arab members. : lately, there was a meating scheduled between the Hadash leadership, and some activists in the gay/lesbian community. Guess who didn't come? the arab memebers. Obviously, the arab members of the party, are as communist as Ronald Reagan,and are still guided by the traditionalist mentality of hating the gay, opressing the woman, etc.. It was rather funny to try and to justify posters on indymedia.org.il that piggish behaviour. "they're under a lot of constraints. We shouldn't forget that the arabs are the real victims... " yeah. the real victims, pushing jobs to their family members, corrupt leadership of local authorities. Way to go, "commies"!

Itīs no secret that a lot of "commies" harbour homophobic and misogynic (sp?) feelings. Personally, I think it stinks

	14-01-2003 16:39									#65
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while risking to be accused of flaming and ad hominems, I think that this behaviour is similar to the "national bolshevick" movement, which has voted for the introduction of priests in the public school systems. they are together with the Communist party of Russia members of the ( get this! ) National Patriotic Union !!!!!! COMMIES!!!

	14-01-2003 16:40									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel erm, no Eli. Arab birth rates in Israel are overestimated.

I'm sorry, but it's a fact. 40-50% of the Arabs are below voting age.

	14-01-2003 17:04									#67
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errm, any real data?

50% are the figures in the Gaza strip. this is not true in Israel proper.

Kamrat: *sigh* if only it would be so. Thing is, that EVEN if the Israeli government stops pushing hard against palestinian civilians (which is wrong IMO), what guarantee do we have that the palestinian authority which will reinstate itself will see eye in eye with Israel?

The fact is that noone in the palestinian leadership has anything to gain from peace. What will they offer their people in peacetime? misery, corruption and oppression? meanwhile Israel will thoroughly decide to block itself from the PA, to solve numerous issues it creates, as security. So they'll lose even more in the economy. the population explosion is VERY near in the gaza strip. That's why I want to get the settlers out of there, when **** hits the fan. How will their economy exist when HALF of people in the gaza strip are less than 18 years old? But if there is war, there's someone to blame. 'THEM'. they'll continue to recieve support , and will continue to fight for them, and if Israel caves in, it would give them something more to boast about.

The evil Zionist government ( ) has much more to gain from peace than the palestinian 'freedom fighters'. This is a fact.
the economy will instantly improve, due to the investments in a peaceful country with a technological society, and a high tech culture, the amount of money collected from taxes will rise, and everyone will feel good, AND WILL VOTE FOR THEM.

	14-01-2003 21:28									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Shinui is NOT the republican party: It's pro-gay rights. It's against religion.

The Republican party is not anti-gay or pro-religion. It certainly is against atheist puritans who want to stop the free exercise thereof.

I would be surprised if Shinui was anything different.

	14-01-2003 21:35									#69
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Well, Azazel? Make an election selector!

	14-01-2003 21:49									#70
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You say that if peace is achieved

quote: Originally posted by Azazel the economy will instantly improve, due to the investments in a peaceful country with a technological society, and a high tech culture, the amount of money collected from taxes will rise, and everyone will feel good, AND WILL VOTE FOR THEM.

I often hear Isrealis say that israel has a 'a high-tech culture' and I am curious in what areas research is being conducted.

I've heard that Israeli scientists have found a way to grow bone-mass.

	14-01-2003 22:49									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Kamrat: *sigh* if only it would be so. Thing is, that EVEN if the Israeli government stops pushing hard against palestinian civilians (which is wrong IMO), what guarantee do we have that the palestinian authority which will reinstate itself will see eye in eye with Israel? The fact is that noone in the palestinian leadership has anything to gain from peace. What will they offer their people in peacetime? misery, corruption and oppression? meanwhile Israel will thoroughly decide to block itself from the PA, to solve numerous issues it creates, as security. So they'll lose even more in the economy. the population explosion is VERY near in the gaza strip. That's why I want to get the settlers out of there, when **** hits the fan. How will their economy exist when HALF of people in the gaza strip are less than 18 years old? But if there is war, there's someone to blame. 'THEM'. they'll continue to recieve support , and will continue to fight for them, and if Israel caves in, it would give them something more to boast about. The evil Zionist government ( ) has much more to gain from peace than the palestinian 'freedom fighters'. This is a fact. the economy will instantly improve, due to the investments in a peaceful country with a technological society, and a high tech culture, the amount of money collected from taxes will rise, and everyone will feel good, AND WILL VOTE FOR THEM.

Well, the palestinian leadership must go of course. Arafat is not doing any good right now. His time has passed IMO. The credibility of the palestinian leadership is tarnished (not to say completely shot to hell...) by the inability to stop Hamas and Islamic Jihad and others like them. I know if there must be some sane people left on the palestinian side, itīs just a matter of finding them and supporting them (from Israel as well as from the international community). But as long as the palestinians live in misery, nothing will change. The cycle of suicide bombings and retribution will continue

We (the international community and Israel) must give the palestinians a reason to make peace, for, as you say, they have nothing to loose today. That is, after all, why they are blowing themselves and innocent israelis to death.

But I canīt even start to imagine how it is living down there, Azazel. With all the hatred, fear and general mistrust. So I donīt blame you (or Eli, Siro, et al) for being somewhat sceptic to my thoughts and ideas....

	14-01-2003 22:59									#72
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quote: The Republican party is not anti-gay or pro-religion. It certainly is against atheist puritans who want to stop the free exercise thereof.

Shinui have nothing against religion. they're against many religious laws that plague this country. btw Ned, do you really believe in creation and that kids should study it at school?

tripledoc: we have IIRC the highest number of cellphones per capita. Our biggest exports are pharmaceutics, electronics, software, processed diamonds, plastics and agricultural produce.
some military hardware as well.
Israel has the largest amount of R&D workers in the world per capita, as well the largest amount of high-tech workers per capita.
and IIRC, that research exists. I am not sure, though.

quote: Well, Azazel? Make an election selector!

Ok.... *goes slaving in the selectsmart.com mines*

	15-01-2003 00:20									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X We (the international community and Israel) must give the palestinians a reason to make peace, for, as you say, they have nothing to loose today. That is, after all, why they are blowing themselves and innocent israelis to death.

And they (the government of Israel) should reduce the reasons Palestinian Leders can use to persuade other Palestinians to blow themselves and other people to death.

For example by actively tearing down illegal Settlements in the occupied territories (and stopping any building activities for new illegal settlements).

One of the IMHO few really good Plans, Sharon made was erecting a fence along the border of 1967, thereby restricting the Access of Palestinians into israel Territory.

Combined with gradually tearing down the settlements in the occupied territories, it could be a way to reduce tensions and maybe making israel territory better controllable.
If the Israelis withdraw from the occupied territory, taking with them all those checkpoint which hinder free movement of Palestinians there (Movement of Palestinians within the occupied Territories is restricted, they often have to cross several checkpoints with Searches just to get from one town to the other) and leaving their settlements there, they would do a lot to reduce tensions.
And by erecting a fence along the israelian/palestinian border with checkpoints for any palestinian who wishes to cross into israelian territory, they could reduce the chances of Suicide Bombers slipping through.
Of course the palestinian borders have to be controlled by UN-Forces, just to prevent some radical Movements of smuggling LongRange Missiles into the coun try, which could be used for Attacks on Israeli Cities across the border and the current leadership has to go, as Kamrat already mentioned.

But I think, it would be an Idea which would be worth a try (although it also would be strongly opposed by religious groups within Israel [those who promote the building of new settlements within the occupied territoreis, because they think, all of palestine belongs rightfully to the Folk of Judaea] and it surely will be opposed by the current palestinian leadership and the radical islamic movements in Palestine.

Just my 2 cent



And now flame me

	15-01-2003 00:52									#74
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quote: Of course the palestinian borders have to be controlled by UN-Forces, just to prevent some radical Movements of smuggling LongRange Missiles into the coun try, which could be used for Attacks on Israeli Cities across the border

Great idea. I'm sure they'll do it, considering their so succesfull record in Lebanon.

	15-01-2003 00:52									#75
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This takes me back.

	15-01-2003 00:59									#76
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quote: But I canīt even start to imagine how it is living down there, Azazel. With all the hatred, fear and general mistrust. So I donīt blame you (or Eli, Siro, et al) for being somewhat sceptic to my thoughts and ideas....

actually, I feel great. I do fear the terrorists, but that's just a part of life. like traffic accidents. *sigh* my christian arab neighbours are great people. and the arab people in the university are ok too. I was with druze kids in highschool, they were also great.

some comments on proteus' post:

UN forces are CRAP. they do NOTHING. 3 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by the Hizbullah on the north border, when UN troops are stationed all along the border, and Israel has met all international demands. Israeli patrols along the international border are often being harassed, and a couple of weeks ago, a soldier was left without his legs after a mine was placed along the border. mind you, the UN is there! I don't trust the UN to do peace. I'd rather have noone at all.

I think that most settlements should be torn down, except 2 settlement blocks which are connected to Jerusalem, and have no arab population in them. leaving them as part of Israel will harm noone. But don't you think that retreating would create incentive for the terrorists?

I don't want any palestinian workers here, at all. They're taking up construction jobs, and get paid much less, so now the construction contractors pay either them, or foreign workers to do the job, this, whilst there are 300k unemployed in Israel.


Trade: sure. working passage: no.

	15-01-2003 01:11									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes Think Palestine.

that's not a sufficient reason to vote nationalist!

	15-01-2003 01:12									#78
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I think I made this selectsmart poll. what do you think, Eli?
http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/sel...israelipolitics

	15-01-2003 01:17									#79
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quote: The immigration from the former Soviet Union is a good thing.

You should separate between Jewish and Russian immigration. Everyone support Jewish immigration, not everyone support one-Jew-who-brings-5-Russians-with-him immigration, myself included.

	15-01-2003 01:18									#80
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Hmph.
Well, the poll is too general so it's not really surprising.

Rank
#1 equals your best match
Item
Default order is alphabetical



#1
Mafdal

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#2
Herut - Freedom

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#3
Likud

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#4
National Union

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#5
Shinui

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#6
Yisrael Ba Aliya

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#7
Ale Yarok

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#8
Judaism of the Torah.

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#9
Shas

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#10
Am Ehad

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#11
Avoda - Labor

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#12
Meretz

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#13
Balad

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#14
Hadash

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#15
Ra'am

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	15-01-2003 01:21									#81
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take it or leave it, honey.

	15-01-2003 01:23									#82
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Basically the question about security left or right were too moderate. That's why I got Herut before Likud.

You should ask about Transfer, both versions, those who dont support it cant be Herut for sure. Those who support the "from will" version can be National Union, but it's not a prerequisite(sp?).

Questions about settlements. A security fence question is not enough. You should differentiate between tiny isolated settlement and the big blocks.
What about the Jerusalem? People who support the division of the city cannot be more right wing than the Labor.

	15-01-2003 01:24									#83
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I got Shinui.

What does the question about Israel being a democratic state mean?

	15-01-2003 01:25									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I don't want any palestinian workers here, at all. They're taking up construction jobs, and get paid much less, so now the construction contractors pay either them, or foreign workers to do the job, this, whilst there are 300k unemployed in Israel. Trade: sure. working passage: no.

ok, that's protectionism, and i understand your issue.

but reckon this (highly unlikely) scene:

the doves get in control, tear down settlements, free occupied territory, withdraw from palestinian cities.
meanwhile a sovereign country palestine is formed with massive international help for finance, infrastructure, police and anti-corruption-specialists. there still will be suicide bombers, baruch goldstein's and rabin murderer like people, but most important PEACE.

ok, say that's reality:
in the east you've got a poor, but cheap-labour country, while in the west there's a rich but expensive country. simple economics will automatically bring over cheap labour for cheap jobs (construction, road working, cleaning, etc.). that's natural distribution.

if -as you hope for- the borders would be closed, isreal might have less unemployment, but otoh labour will be much more expensive, which generally has bigger impact that the a few ten-thousand less unemployed.

so, let's say the border is closed for workers. what will happen? non-xenophobic israel producers will move their factories just over the border. they'll get the cheap labour there and there's nothing you could do against it, because that's the nature of economics... redistribution. why else have many european and american companies opened factories in china, india and safe 3rd world countries?

protectionism never works in the long term, that has been proven...

	15-01-2003 01:25									#85
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DP.

	15-01-2003 01:25									#86
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Questions about media and high court of justice bias should also be there. Same for Spehardi discrimination, if people vote yes on this one they'll probably go for Shas.

	15-01-2003 01:27									#87
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most apolytoners don't even know what sephardi is. plus, I am lazy.

	15-01-2003 01:28									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu I got Shinui. What does the question about Israel being a democratic state mean?

Several parties want a country whose laws are based on the Halacha, the Jewish law.

	15-01-2003 01:31									#89
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or just a dictatorship. Like the NU.

"we should have a constitution that says that Israel is at first jewish, and only then democrativ" Avigdor "Nuke Damascus" Liberman.

(he didn't actually say 'nuke damascus', I am only kidding. )

	15-01-2003 01:33									#90
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That's something I can agree with. Depends on how you define a "Jewish" state.