13-01-2003 08:00									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Asher, What is your take on the rumors of MS releasing software from Linux. Started by some idealistic nerd over at Slashdot?

I don't think MS will ever release software for Linux.

They're allowing non-Windows platforms to use Windows Media now (at half the price of MPEG4 too), and Windows apps can run on Linux (and MacOS) provided they use .NET, since Linux and MacOS will both have .NET runtimes...

	13-01-2003 08:03									#32
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I'm glad that you aren't an AOL fanboy at least Ashie, it makes me think that you aren't totally without hope.

	13-01-2003 08:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You're saying that MS has no interest in the highly lucrative gaming industry? That they're investing billions of dollars in the Xbox just to head off a potential (and not too convincing) threat from Sony? Are you that naive? It's pretty obvious that MS is in the gaming industry for the money. Stopping Sony's digital hub plan in its infancy is just an added benefit.

Again, Drake, this is nonsense and I'd like to know your source for anything you've said.

Seriously, read Opening the Xbox. It's an objective book about how the Xbox came to be, including all of the bickering that went on between all the divisions and who made what decisions.

In short, Seamus Blackley (who no longer works at MS) and J Allard essentially pestered Gates for a year saying they should get into the game industry, because it can be highly lucrative.

Then the business relationship between Sony and MS went particularly sour and Sony began hyping up developers and everyone about how their PS2 is going to become an entertainment computer -- which could very well topple MS' marketshare on computer OSes, especially when Sony released Linux for the PS2. Ballmer noticed this, convinced Gates the reason to get the Xbox out there is to ensure Sony can't waltz right in and take the marketshare.

The Xbox is viewed as an expense internally at MS. It's a necessary product to get a presense in the living room in the event of Sony continuing the trend of making their Playstations more and more like computers and the center of the digital home.

Microsoft Game Studios, a subsidiary of MS, is certainly all about games and wants profit.

Microsoft, the parent company, just wants to protect its marketshare from emergin threats. The cost it took to launch into the world of home consoles is pretty miniscule compared to the possible consequences if they don't.

It's a trojan horse.

If you want to read more about it, feel free to get the book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846

It's fact that MS didn't get into the market because they simply think video games are profitable. If anything, that's a nice sideeffect (it's still pissy compared to their Office and Windows divisions and far more risky too), but they're not expecting a profit on the Xbox until 2004-2005 at the earliest, if at all, and it doesn't bother them...

You may not be convinced the Sony threat is real, but somehow I'm thinking that industry analysts and the business executives at two of the largest corporations understand slightly more about the situation than you would. I don't see why you don't understand the threat. *shrugs*

	13-01-2003 08:10									#34
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Well personally it is a tragedy that IBM picked Linux over BSD.

BSD is the most stable 386 OS on the planet. You can throw anything at it, hell even hit it with a sledgehammer and it won't break.

It also makes more of a business sense to develop on BSD because the BSD license lets you do anything you want with it unlike the GNU license, and the BSD OS is really tight and standards compliant.

That's okay though BSD will continue to hack out new versions while Linux gets all the glory.

	13-01-2003 08:12									#35
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quote: If MS wanted the market, the Xboy would have been released with the Xbox like J Allard wanted.

Nintendo would probably have been able to handle that given the wild success of the Gameboy though.

	13-01-2003 08:16									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Nintendo would probably have been able to handle that given the wild success of the Gameboy though.

I wouldn't be too sure.

The NES and SNES were wildly successful, and Sony's playstation walked all over the N64.

The only reason the Gameboy is so successful right now is because there are NO competitors in the handheld market.

If MS had released Xboy with its backlit screen and li-ion batteries back in Nov 2001 (which Nintendo just got around to doing now) along with a much more powerful Intel XScale chip rather than the StrongARM in the GBA, I think they would have made quite a big dent in Nintendo's marketshare.

But there's nothing useful in it for MS in handhelds. It's hugely profitable (it's what essentially keeps Nintendo afloat), but it doesn't mean anything to MS because they don't see it as a threat.

	13-01-2003 08:19									#37
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quote: Seriously, read Opening the Xbox. It's an objective book about how the Xbox came to be, including all of the bickering that went on between all the divisions and who made what decisions.

Oh, I'll run right out and get that.

I waste enough time on Poly as it is; I don't need to waste even more time reading some MS stroke book. Why don't you find some internet sources, ok?

	13-01-2003 08:21									#38
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quote: I waste enough time on Poly as it is; I don't need to waste even more time reading some MS stroke book. Why don't you find some internet sources, ok?

It's NOT an MS stroke book.

If anything it portrays MS as a disorganized chaotic company with all of the divisions wanting different things, and the execs as indecisive.

But that's okay, Drake, dismiss it without even looking into it because it would completely and utterly shoot down your point which doesn't even make sense logically.

PS: The Xbox was originally known as Project Midway internally. That came out in the book, doncha know. I don't think an MS stroke book would tell people about that.

	13-01-2003 08:23									#39
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What is BSD? Blue Screen Death?

	13-01-2003 08:25									#40
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quote: and utterly shoot down your point which doesn't even make sense logically.

How exactly is my point not logical, Fez?

1. Microsoft wants to make money
2. Microsoft sees lucrative gaming industry
3. Microsoft moves into gaming industry to make money

How is that illogical?

	13-01-2003 08:26									#41
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quote: Originally posted by GP What is BSD? Blue Screen Death?

Berkeley Systems Distribution is what it stands for (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc)

Very ancient but still very modern OS similar to Linux, but much better.

IMHO, BSD is the best server OS out there.

	13-01-2003 08:27									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Prices haven't changed on consumer Windows OSes in many years, people really need to realize that the reason Windows is in a monopoly position on the consumer PC is because consumers want Windows.

LMAO!

Is that why all these consumers have filed all sorts of class-action suits because they want Windows?

Oh, do you know that MS is trying to settle the one in California for $1.1b? Which means, of course, MS has gyped them for a whole lot more than that.

	13-01-2003 08:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten How exactly is my point not logical, Fez? 1. Microsoft wants to make money 2. Microsoft sees lucrative gaming industry 3. Microsoft moves into gaming industry to make money How is that illogical?

is right...

1. MS has lost billions of dollars on the Xbox so far and has yet to break even
2. At the earliest it will turn a quarterly profit in late 2004/2005, at the END of the cycle, and still results in billions of dollars of losses

In what area there do you see them MAKING tons of money???

That's why it's illogical.

If MS was about making money more than it was dominating marketshare it wouldn't have taken such huge losses on the hardware!

	13-01-2003 08:29									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger LMAO! Is that why all these consumers have filed all sorts of class-action suits because they want Windows?

Because they're greedy bastards who want money back?

Just because people filed lawsuits doesn't mean a damn thing, Urban, you know better than that...

quote: Oh, do you know that MS is trying to settle the one in California for $1.1b? Which means, of course, MS has gyped them for a whole lot more than that.

MS did settle that one. Where have you been?

And it doesn't mean that MS gyped them for $1.1B. Do you understand the legal system and what it means to settle something, Urban?

The $1.1B is in vouchers, mostly for Microsoft products, by the way.

	13-01-2003 08:31									#45
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Have to agree with Drake here, Asher. If any market is worthwhile to block, it would be MS's OS market. But you've got to think you'll make a good profit doing it, in the context of your whole product line, in order to do it.

An Xboy might not complement their other products like the XBox does. Remember, a PC and an XBox are nearly identical.

	13-01-2003 08:32									#46
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quote: That's why it's illogical.

It's only illogical if you purposely limit your projections to 2005. MS is planning on making all the money on the Xbox 2. If MS achieves a large market percentage in the console market by then, it'll be a cash cow for years. Try again...

	13-01-2003 08:32									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Berkeley Systems Distribution is what it stands for (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc) Very ancient but still very modern OS similar to Linux, but much better. IMHO, BSD is the best server OS out there.

How about UNIX? Where does that fit in with Linux and BSD and all?

	13-01-2003 08:35									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Berkeley Systems Distribution is what it stands for (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc) Very ancient but still very modern OS similar to Linux, but much better. IMHO, BSD is the best server OS out there.

GP,

Yeah, what he said.

The code base on BSD is like 30 years old (though it has been updated every year since) so it's been pounded on and refined over the years.

Using BSD

Alot of Internet Service Providers swear by BSD's, and Yahoo runs on BSD and half of Hotmail still does.

There are some internet servers out there that haven't been shutdown in years, and most of theml run some kind of BSD:

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html

When you use BSD it's like using a commercial UNIX, but when you use Linux it's like you're using this thing that's been hacked together. Oh wait, that's what you are doing.

	13-01-2003 08:36									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten It's only illogical if you purposely limit your projections to 2005. MS is planning on making all the money on the Xbox 2. If MS achieves a monopoly in the console market by then, it'll be a cash cow for years. Try again...

That's not how the console industry works.

Monopolies do not carry over from generation to generation of consoles.

MS will once again need to take losses on the hardware in 2005 like they did in 2001, it's a given, particularly when an Xbox2 is an Xbox2 + UltimateTV all in one...

quote: Have to agree with Drake here, Asher. If any market is worthwhile to block, it would be MS's OS market. But you've got to think you'll make a good profit doing it, in the context of your whole product line, in order to do it.

Again, this may make sense to most companies, but that's not how it works in this case.

The majority of games made do NOT even make money. They lose money. A minority of games make money, some of them astronomical amounts of money, but it's a very risky market with anything-but guaranteed revenue streams and a huge barrier of entry.

Does it sound like MS would get into that for the profit?

MS got into it to protect marketshare, as quoted by about a half-dozen execs in the book I cited and is very consistent with MS' previous behavior...

Take IE: Internet Browsers can effectively become computer operating systems themselves, they're quickly becoming very critical. To combat Netscape, MS made IE free and lost money on it, still loses money on it to this day, but considers it an expense...

quote: An Xboy might not complement their other products like the XBox does. Remember, a PC and an XBox are nearly identical.

And an Xboy and a MS SmartPhone are nearly identical, what's that prove?

	13-01-2003 08:39									#50
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quote: Originally posted by GP How about UNIX? Where does that fit in with Linux and BSD and all?

GP,

BSD is UNIX. Most of the commerical UNIX (like IBM, Sun Microsystems, Hewlitt-Packard) are based on the original BSD code, they just run on special, proprietary hardware.

BSD is free UNIX for 386(Intel) commodity hardware. (Like you can install BSD onto the computer you are using right now).

Linux is a clone that was written to act like UNIX, while BSD is the original UNIX. That's why it's better because it's been hammered on for many years and is more standardized.

Alot of Linux users will initially use Linux but switch to BSD if they come from a commercial UNIX background.

Linux is used alot more than BSD in the workplace because it supports more applications (Oracle, SAP) that don't run on BSD. That's a shame.

	13-01-2003 08:39									#51
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quote: Monopolies do not carry over from generation to generation of consoles

Playstation ---> Playstation 2

The name brand very much did carry over in that case, sweetheart.

NES and SNES worked in the same way. It took a collosal blunder by Nintendo on the N64 to allow Sony in the door.

	13-01-2003 08:41									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Monopolies do not carry over from generation to generation of consoles Playstation ---> Playstation 2 The name brand very much did carry over in that case, sweetheart. NES and SNES worked in the same way. It took a collosal blunder by Nintendo on the N64 to allow Sony in the door.

Don't patronize me, Drake...

Atari gave way to Nintendo, Nintendo gave way to Sony.

Monopolies aren't even close to being consistent from generation to generation.

The only reason the Playstation 2 continued is because it effectively had no competition for a year and a half in most regions. It did help that many people simply upgraded, but once it got a huge headstart it kept momentum. Using that as an example in this case is completely stupid...

	13-01-2003 08:42									#53
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quote: Monopolies aren't even close to being consistent from generation to generation.

I just gave you two examples to the contrary, yet you insist on saying this. Why?

	13-01-2003 08:44									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I just gave you two examples to the contrary, yet you insist on saying this. Why?

Because it's TRUE!
Jesus Drake.

The examples you gave are special circumstances where 1.5 year headstarts were given and the like...it doesn't prove a damn thing for the next cycle.

Here's the problem. It's very simple...

You're stating it like it's a law: That once MS would get a monopoly it would hold that monopoly.

The only real problems with that are, well:

	13-01-2003 08:46									#55
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I suspect Glonkie is right. MS has been pouring money down a rathole for a while with the X-box. They are not doing it as an investment. There are lots of other things where they could get a better return. They are doing it to protect the core.

	13-01-2003 08:48									#56
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"Does it sound like MS would get into that for the profit?"

Sure. The barriers to entry they can handle. Games OS licensing is where the money is at. And you can make a good profit on this.

	13-01-2003 08:49									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker GP, BSD is UNIX. Most of the commerical UNIX (like IBM, Sun Microsystems, Hewlitt-Packard) are based on the original BSD code, they just run on special, proprietary hardware. BSD is free UNIX for 386(Intel) commodity hardware. (Like you can install BSD onto the computer you are using right now). Linux is a clone that was written to act like UNIX, while BSD is the original UNIX. That's why it's better because it's been hammered on for many years and is more standardized. Alot of Linux users will initially use Linux but switch to BSD if they come from a commercial UNIX background. Linux is used alot more than BSD in the workplace because it supports more applications (Oracle, SAP) that don't run on BSD. That's a shame.

Why do they run on 386? They're not on Pentiums?

	13-01-2003 08:50									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Sure. The barriers to entry they can handle. Games OS licensing is where the money is at. And you can make a good profit on this.

You can if you make cheap consoles, like Nintendo and Sony do, you can't if you throw in all kinds of cool hardware to ensure you've got good marketshare.

	13-01-2003 08:51									#59
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quote: Originally posted by GP Why do they run on 386? They're not on Pentiums?

Any code that will run on a 386 also would run on a Pentium, it just means the code doesn't have any MMX or SSE instructions in it that the Pentium/Pentium III added.

Most Unix stuff is 386 because it's safe to distribute, some stuff is recompiled to be 586 or 686 stuff afterwards...

	13-01-2003 08:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by GP Why do they run on 386? They're not on Pentiums?

Oh I'm sorry.

When I say "386," bascially I mean any chip that is manufactured by Intel or AMD. So that includes the latest Pentiums.

One of the reasons Linux is so popular is because you can go to Best Buy and buy a cheap piece of hardware and make a server out of it. In the past, you had to buy UNIX hardware that ran into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Some of the Sun UNIX machines, for example are 1 million dollars and UP.