13-01-2003 08:52									#61
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quote: The examples you gave are special circumstances where 1.5 year headstarts were given and the like...it doesn't prove a damn thing for the next cycle.

I mentioned two monopolies that combined have spanned most of the life of console gaming. Special circumstances, hmm?

edit: I'm also pretty sure that the SNES was released after the Sega Genesis. So much for your "headstart" theory...

quote: You're stating it like it's a law: That once MS would get a monopoly it would hold that monopoly.

No I didn't. I said that MS thought it could obtain a large market share by the time the Xbox 2 rolls out and anticipated making money then. I don't see where you get a "law" out of that, but you are quite good at making **** up.

quote: The Xbox won't even close to being a monopoly in 2005, which totally trashes your theory to beginwith * Nobody expected the Xbox to be close to a monopoly in 2005 to beginwith

I never said MS would have a monopoly by 2005; I said they would have a large market share. You don't need a monopoly in consoles to turn a profit. Quit beating your strawmen and come back to the light...

	13-01-2003 08:54									#62
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quote: I never said MS would have a monopoly by 2005; I said they would have a large market share. You don't need a monopoly in consoles to turn a profit. Quit beating your strawmen and come back to the light...

How do you define a large marketshare?

They'll end up with 30%, 35% tops. That's not a large marketshare in my books, and I don't see how it means they won't need to lose lots of money again in 2005...wanna run that one by me again?

Did you also consider that the majority non-Nintendo fans tend not to be very loyal to the platform? They tend to be far more casual outside of Nintendo's realm, they go where the good games on...doesn't matter what brand their last console was.

	13-01-2003 08:54									#63
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You don't even need close to 50% market share to make good money on consoles. 25% would be quite sufficient.

	13-01-2003 08:56									#64
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Check out these bad boys:

http://store.sun.com/catalog/doc/Br...&parentId=26829

	13-01-2003 08:56									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You don't even need close to 50% market share to make good money on consoles. 25% would be quite sufficient.

This is true, but this is not the goal.

MS wants a majority marketshare, in order to protect its core businesses.

So it doesn't mean once they get 25% marketshare they start selling consoles at-cost like Nintendo is ready to do. It means they're about 50% short of their goal and they need to gain more marketshare, which costs even more $$$$...

	13-01-2003 08:58									#66
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quote: they go where the good games on...doesn't matter what brand their last console was.

If this is true, then why are people buying the Xbox? It can't be for the games; the Xbox has the worst library out of all three consoles.

People buy consoles based on hype and name brand recognition helps build hype and sell consoles. That's what the Xbox is doing; building name brand recognition for MS and paving the way for a profitable Xbox 2.

	13-01-2003 09:02									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten If this is true, then why are people buying the Xbox? It can't be for the games; the Xbox has the worst library out of all three consoles.

Give me a break, Drake.
Can we at least try to keep this subjective?

I'd hate to bring in numbers like Xbox having a higher attach rate (games sold per console) than the Gamecube and the higher numbers of 1M+ sellers...

You know it's my opinion that the Gamecube has the worst library, anyway.

quote: People buy consoles based on hype and name brand recognition helps build hype and sell consoles. That's what the Xbox is doing; building name brand recognition for MS and paving the way for a profitable Xbox 2.

And what do you base this off? Just gut instinct, based off your intricate knowledge of how the Xbox and MS works?

The Xbox2 is going to be an expensive bastard. It'll be coming out the same time as the PS3, which means it won't have a year to wait out and get better tech. MS needs it to be faster and more flexible than the PS3, coming out at the same time, which means it's going to cost a fortune for them to do...

That's my basis for it, why do YOU think the Xbox2 is going to "profitable", not just slightly, but enough to offset the billions of dollars they lost with the original Xbox.

	13-01-2003 09:08									#68
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quote: That's my basis for it, why do YOU think the Xbox2 is going to "profitable", not just slightly, but enough to offset the billions of dollars they lost with the original Xbox.

It all depends on how successful the Xbox is. If the Xbox does well and gamers embrace it, then the Xbox 2 will receive all the advance buzz and media hype that the PS2 got this time around. MS needs to make the Xbox seem "cooler" than the PS2 by the time the next generation rolls around. If they can do this, then they'll be poised to have the highest market share in an industry that is growing at an astronomical rate. Sounds like a profitable deal to me, but what do I know? I'm just an illogical liberal, right Fez?

	13-01-2003 09:12									#69
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quote: I'm just an illogical liberal, right Fez?

Could you knock it off with the ad hominem crap?

I've said some of your arguments are illogical, that doesn't mean I think you're illogical and it certainly is different from what Fez does.

Perhaps what you're saying is quite logical to you, but it doesn't make a damn bit of sense if you had any idea what MS was doing with the Xbox. Which is a shame, because I told you how you could learn more about it, but you refuse to, but still debate about it without knowing it.

The Xbox will not be profitable, the Xbox2 will not be profitable.

But that's still beside the point.
MS didn't get in the video game business for the profits, but to protect its core business and perhaps make a profit while doing so.

I've got my sources, many first-hand and fly-on-the-wall accounts of the planning of the Xbox and its successor in the book I mentioned. Mine are grounded in reality.

Your sources are your own mind and what you think might be happening. Even when told about evidence to the contrary you plug your ears and don't want to hear it.

You should look at your own position before you call me Fez.

	13-01-2003 09:15									#70
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Damn man I was hoping we could have a discussion on FreeBSD 5, PHP 5, and Apache 2.

	13-01-2003 09:16									#71
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quote: Perhaps what you're saying is quite logical to you, but it doesn't make a damn bit of sense if you had any idea what MS was doing with the Xbox.

My arguments aren't made illogical just because you don't agree with them. People can logically come to two different conclusions. It would be nice if you figured that out...

quote: Even when told about evidence to the contrary you plug your ears and don't want to hear it.

I asked for internet sources, so I hardly think that I plugged my ears to your evidence. I just don't want to run out to buy and read a book I have no interest in simply to debate you on Poly. I guess I don't feel guilty about that...

	13-01-2003 09:16									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Check out these bad boys: http://store.sun.com/catalog/doc/Br...&parentId=26829

1. Be still my beating heart.

2. They look kinda junky for that amount of money. I want some steel and water-cooling and crap like that for that amount of money.

3. I tried to get one full loaded but it kept gltiching up. This is the best I could do. Only has 6 extra sytem boards. And man! It is all about the system boards. [url]http://store.sun.com/webconfig/BuildConfig.jhtml[/ url];$sessionid$Q41F0BK2G5W3RAMTHLUSTGUBSM3OSKXO#S
ummary

4. My credit card was not approved. Need to get a higher limit I guess.

	13-01-2003 09:17									#73
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quote: Damn man I was hoping we could have a discussion on FreeBSD 5, PHP 5, and Apache 2.

Mac OS X kicks ass, partially because it's built on FreeBSD and Apache.

	13-01-2003 09:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GP 1. Be still my beating heart. 2. They look kinda junky for that amount of money. I want some steel and water-cooling and crap like that for that amount of money. 3. I tried to get one full loaded but it kept gltiching up. This is the best I could do. Only has 6 extra sytem boards. And man! It is all about the system boards. [url]http://store.sun.com/webconfig/BuildConfig.jhtml[/ url];$sessionid$Q41F0BK2G5W3RAMTHLUSTGUBSM3OSKXO#S ummary 4. My credit card was not approved. Need to get a higher limit I guess.

"All about the system boards."

	13-01-2003 09:21									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Damn man I was hoping we could have a discussion on FreeBSD 5, PHP 5, and Apache 2. Mac OS X kicks ass, partially because it's built on FreeBSD and Apache.

Have you used Mac OS yet Drake?

I have no experience with it, but even people that don't like Macs seem to like it. Though I heard the original release was deathly slow because of the GUI that sits on top of FreeBSD, while graphically amazing, grinds along.

	13-01-2003 09:21									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten My arguments aren't made illogical just because you don't agree with them. People can logically come to two different conclusions. It would be nice if you figured that out...

Your arguments are illogical because they're based off of false assumptions.

You seem to think MS is in the market for the Xbox for a profit. If so, why didn't they OK the Xboy too? If so, why did they load the Xbox down with so much hardware that it'd be impossible to turn a profit?

At this point you're bound to say "because then they'd make profits off the Xbox 2!" which still doesn't make sense. Having a predecessor doesn't guarantee you an equal-or-greater marketshare for the next console, it never did and it never will in the game console world. It's happened sometimes, sometimes it doesn't. It's not reliable to predict it will happen.

It doesn't make any sense based off of the information and the results of what happened so far for anyone to believe MS is in the console market for profit. The only argument anyone could have would be "you CAN make lots of money in it". Which is true. But it's not how MS has been playing the game, which is kinda the point, isn't it?

quote: I asked for internet sources, so I hardly think that I plugged my ears to your evidence. I just don't want to run out to buy and read a book I have no interest in simply to debate you on Poly. I guess I don't feel guilty about that...

Don't you have libraries?
It was a NYT Best Seller, I'm sure a library in your city will have it.

I don't have any internet sources because I've never bothered looking. The evidence is out there, whether you wanna spend the $17 to read about it or find your local library and loan it is up to you.

It's out there if you ever wanna read it, and I think you should read it if you're going to get into an argument about it, don't you think?

	13-01-2003 09:24									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Mac OS X kicks ass, partially because it's built on FreeBSD and Apache.

It's based on an archaic build of the Mach kernel that's from the early 90s (NeXT played with it a bit and modified it), not really FreeBSD.

And it's not based off of Apache. Just comes with it. There's a difference.

	13-01-2003 09:24									#78
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quote: Have you used Mac OS yet Drake? I have no experience with it, but even people that don't like Macs seem to like it. Though I heard the original release was deathly slow because of the GUI that sits on top of FreeBSD, while graphically amazing, grinds along.

I'm using it right now.

I love it. The initial release was sluggish because of Aqua (the GUI), but later releases have fixed that. All in all it's a superb OS, with all the next gen features you could want put into a stunning package. Apple's done a great job with it.

	13-01-2003 09:26									#79
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So are you a Mac user or did you switch to it?

Do you ever use the UNIX commands on there?

	13-01-2003 09:27									#80
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quote: Don't you have libraries?

I like to spend my library time on more fulfilling reading. There's foreign policy books to be read...

quote: Your arguments are illogical because they're based off of false assumptions.

You win, Fez. I disagree with you, so my arguments must be illogical. Revel in your victory...

	13-01-2003 09:30									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker So are you a Mac user or did you switch to it? Do you ever use the UNIX commands on there?

I've always been a Mac user. And I do use the command line on occasion, but I tend to be extremely careful when using it. I don't know much about UNIX, so I let the more experienced UNIX gurus explain the things before I try them. You don't really need to use the UNIX commands if you don't want to, but then again you could run the whole thing off the command line if that's what you like. The best of both worlds...

	13-01-2003 09:30									#82
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quote: You win, Fez. I disagree with you, so my arguments must be illogical. Revel in your victory...

That's not my logic at all, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Did you even bother reading the damn posts?

You know, you've called me Fez and said I'm the one constructing strawmen here...you're the one refusing to read the book which backs up everything I'm saying from first-person accounts of the people involved making the decisions, and you're the one constantly using strawmen as a way of trying to make MY arguments illogical, and you mixed in some ad hominems in there too...who does that sound like?

	13-01-2003 10:22									#83
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I've never said that your arguments are illogical, Asher. We simply disagree. You're the one accusing others of being illogical, not me. If that makes you sound like Fez, then so be it. I can't control your behavior.

	13-01-2003 10:25									#84
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Fez calls posters illogical, I call illogical arguments illogical.

Do you know the difference?

We may disagree, Drake, but the reason we disagree is because knowing the facts, your conclusion doesn't follow. What do we say when this happens?

	13-01-2003 10:35									#85
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What facts? You're assuming that the Xbox 2 won't make a profit, therefore Microsoft can't be in it for the money. I'm assuming the Xbox 2 could make a profit and Microsoft is in it for the money. We're both working off of unsubstantiated assumptions, yet you claim mine are false and your's are true. I don't think you have a crystal ball handy, so your assumptions are no more true than mine. Yet you persist in calling my arguments "illogical" when they are not. You sound like a little kid who can't tell the difference between something being "wrong" and something being "illogical". You can claim that my conclusions are wrong all you want; I sure think you're wrong. But to claim that I'm being illogical is absurd and Fez-like. Get a clue.

	13-01-2003 10:36									#86
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You wanna explain to me how the Xbox2 can outperform a PS3 and not cost a fortune to make?

And it is patently illogical to think MS got into the console market mainly for profit, mainly because they've publically stated they intend to lose money on it!

	13-01-2003 10:36									#87
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quote: Sony's "move" on the home computer market is nothing but rumors and grandiose talk.

So you've never heard of the Sony Vaio, I see?

Oh, and I find it laughable that you actually think that monopolies follow from console to console. All you've shown is NES/SNES and Playstation/Playstation2. So the question is why didn't N64 continue the NES monopoly? Because there is no monopoly transfer in the console market. It simply doesn't exist. SNES was on top because it's only competition was Sega and Sega, while making good games, has a legendary aptitute for ****ing up consoles. Look at the history after the Genesis. Sega CD? Dreamcast?

Playstation 2 was #1 because it was the first out there by a span of a few years. We have to see what MS does with it's XBox in the near future, and especially with XBox2.

	13-01-2003 10:38									#88
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quote: So the question is why didn't N64 continue the NES monopoly?

Because of a flawed cartridge format and an arrogant attitude towards developers by Nintendo. Pretty obvious to anyone who knows anything about console history...

That would be the "collosal blunder" I mentioned in my post.

	13-01-2003 10:39									#89
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quote: Because of a flawed cartridge format and an arrogant attitude towards developers by Nintendo. Pretty obvious to anyone who knows anything about console history...

So what you're saying is there are many variables and it doesn't make sense to assume a console can continue on a "monopoly"?

Even Sony doesn't ever assume that. They know how easily they waltzed in and took it away from Nintendo, and now they're worried about MS doing the same to them.

	13-01-2003 10:42									#90
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quote: You wanna explain to me how the Xbox2 can outperform a PS3 and not cost a fortune to make?

First of all, why would the Xbox 2 have to outperfrom the PS3? They could be exactly equal in power and MS would still come out on top if they attracted the better games to their system.

Secondly, you know damn well that all the profits in the game industry are made off of software sales, not hardware. If MS sells enough Xbox 2 software, they can afford a big hit on the hardware.

But please, continue with your prophetic statements. I'm really enjoying this...