21-02-2003 17:01									#331
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Jam, do you have a larger pic of your avatar ?

	21-02-2003 17:12									#332
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quote: However, I note that you didn't address my argument that just because people already have things, doesn't mean theyw on't buy others - things wear out or are made obsolete, or people just want more of them. Also, some things will always be consumed, simply because we need them and we use them up - water, food, power (including petrol and such), construction materials (for new housing), the various things requried to make them, and so on. Not to mention entertainment.

Sure people will replace as things wear out, but this will not produce market growth, only keep things as they are. A capitalist economy is like a shark - it has to keep growing, or it dies. You could be right about media though. We always need new games, and we keep playing the old ones too.

Pan - I'll have a look on my hard drive at home. I think I can find the goods. BTW, I like the ressurrected Lenin Pic

-Jam

	21-02-2003 17:19									#333
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quote: Sure people will replace as things wear out, but this will not produce market growth, only keep things as they are.

Why do you say that? New things tend to be more expensive to buy, remember.

quote: You could be right about media though. We always need new games, and we keep playing the old ones too.

Exactly.

	21-02-2003 17:32									#334
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quote: Why do you say that? New things tend to be more expensive to buy, remember.

More expensive than 2nd hand things, yes. But a new TV now costs less in real money than in 1990, or 1980 etc. CD players are now cheaper, PC's etc etc. The only things that are more expensive are the cutting edge techs, and people are stopping upgrading to these.

Anyone bought a digital TV? Or a video phone? Or a minidisc player?

Or an XBox

-Jam

	21-02-2003 17:36									#335
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quote: More expensive than 2nd hand things, yes. But a new TV now costs less in real money than in 1990, or 1980 etc. CD players are now cheaper, PC's etc etc.

OTOH, they're also a lot cheaper to make, and the industry that make sthem is much larger.

quote: The only things that are more expensive are the cutting edge techs, and people are stopping upgrading to these. Anyone bought a digital TV? Or a video phone? Or a minidisc player? Or an XBox

People upgrade to those techs if they actually have a practical use for them. I imagine once they find that the industry is only producing the cool new stuff for the cutting edge ahrdwear, they will start buying, because they have no other choice if they want the cool new stuff.

	21-02-2003 17:39									#336
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Other things that are driving down prices (here anyway) :

Introduction of the Euro and
The Internet

Now I can compare prices across Europe and buy on-line. And I don't have to worry about delivery charges as the companies are falling over each other to deliver free. As you well know, competition lowers prices, and competition is what we have - big time.

-Jam

	21-02-2003 17:44									#337
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Which is a good thing, no? It forces companies to try to provide a better deal than their competitors.

	21-02-2003 17:49									#338
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Which is a bad thing IMHO. The companies have to reduce prices to compete, which means they are losing profitability. This often leads to reductions in workforce, which then leads to less buying power in the market. Either that or the reduced profits cause investors to look elsewhere, with predictable results for the company. What happens in practise is that the smaller firms go bust, and people lose thier lifes' work. Whisch sucks.

-Jam

	21-02-2003 17:53									#339
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I'd say that the main reaosn for this happening is that the companies are working against their own interests when they do what you've just described. If they were actually seeing further than the next earnings statement, they'd be behaving rather differently.

	21-02-2003 18:09									#340
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But this is what a company has to do to survive. Companies are not evil, and I never suggested that, but they have to look after number one. A company that does not compete is very quickly either a dead company, or someone else's company.

Take the example of Nike. Despite massive sales, and huge profits the company is still in trouble. It's profits are not as big as last years. Now Nike is losing stock value, and this is a slippery slope. They make a huge profit on each pair of shoes, and they are producing in mass, offshore with the cheapest possible materials and labour. What can they do now to make their profits bigger? Their labour is so cheap it would cost more to automate it. And increasing their inflated prices even more will make them uncompetitive. Any behavior the company takes is against its own interests at this point, but they are compelled to do something

They'll probably just sack the CEO.

-Jam

	22-02-2003 04:05									#341
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Alright guys, take it outside

	22-02-2003 04:28									#342
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War of Art, why are you trying to portray one of the strengths of the capitalist system as a weakness? Inefficient marginal producers are forced out of the market when there is a contraction in demand, and enter the market in search of profit when it expands. When market size doesn't change, they could be forced out because they couldn't compete with larger companies seeking to increase market share.

	22-02-2003 04:33									#343
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*A group of missile infantry soldiers storms in the Pandemonian CCCP HQ.
*BUZZZZZZZ* Off-Topic alert. You are under arrest. Please follow me into this room without resisting.

	22-02-2003 04:35									#344
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* GT was already on the next plane out of Pandemonium when the troops arrived.

	22-02-2003 06:09									#345
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*hides with his Drone Pal's*

@Art: Regarding Euro: For Electronics: Yes
For all Goods: No
iE: Food got expensive

	22-02-2003 06:12									#346
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Isn't that mainly due to the fact that EU governments buy up 'surplus' food production and destroy it keep prices up?

	22-02-2003 18:31									#347
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Rather because we have a protectionist policy so the cheaper food out of the third world can't get in.

	22-02-2003 20:23									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Rather because we have a protectionist policy so the cheaper food out of the third world can't get in.

3rd World? Don't you mean Australia?

	22-02-2003 21:40									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic 3rd World? Don't you mean Australia?

Possible. I'm not aware of the food prices over the world. Let me rephrase then:

quote: Rather because we have a protectionist policy so the cheaper food out of the rest of the world can't get in.

	22-02-2003 21:54									#350
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus * GT was already on the next plane out of Pandemonium when the troops arrived.

* Pandemoniak sends personal AAA-Missile Rovers to track him down !

	23-02-2003 06:04									#351
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quote: Possible. I'm not aware of the food prices over the world. Let me rephrase then:

Much like the US. F*cking WTO... they throw a fit when any Third World country puts up trade barriers, but they have no objection when the big boys do it themselves.

	23-02-2003 06:05									#352
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quote: * Pandemoniak sends personal AAA-Missile Rovers to track him down !

* GT orders security forces to arrest Pande for conspiracy to assassinate a government official.

	23-02-2003 21:05									#353
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus * GT orders security forces to arrest Pande for conspiracy to assassinate a government official.

GT's security forces rebel and claim themselves "Free Drones", then vanish in the country to conduct terrorism operations against what they call "the imperialist tigers".

* Pandemoniak denies involvment to the UN Court and is released next day morning.

	24-02-2003 11:39									#354
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* GT frantically tries to wake Pande up from his bizarre dream.

Pande, not only are my security forces entirely reliable, but your protestations of innocence cary no weight when you left undeniable, physical evidence behind.

	24-02-2003 14:23									#355
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GT, what are your security forces doing on Jedinican territory?
* Maniac and his missile infanterists arrest the Centralian/Commissionerian (which ones?) security forces and release Pandemoniak.

	24-02-2003 14:27									#356
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They're federal security forces, they can go anywhere they like. I'm the commissioner, remember? Now release them and re-arrest Pande or we'll arrest you too for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and interferance with security forces while on duty.

	24-02-2003 14:35									#357
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Well yes, the federal forces can come everywhere in our faction without permission except in Jedinica. We are a freestate after all and have increased autonomy. We support several independent security squads, the best of the entire faction.

	24-02-2003 14:40									#358
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Such a restriction is not found anywhere in the UN High Council Internal Security Act of MY 2202, which established the federal and regional security forces and overrides any local laws regions may have on the matter. In fact ti explicitly states that "So long as federal security forces do not infringe upon the human, civil, or other rights of any UN citizen, they are to be granted free and unrestricted access to anywhere within the territory of the UN, without exception, in the context of a criminal or other official investigation or operation."

	24-02-2003 14:49									#359
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Yeah but that was changed in the First Amendment Article 5 of MY 2203 when I started calling "Jedinica" "Jedinica Vrijstaat" and no one objected.

	24-02-2003 14:51									#360
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I have Justice Immunity, I dont care !