18-01-2003 04:13									#1
	Term 8 Domestic Minister Issues Increase Your PM Length

This is the thread for doestic ministry issues. Suggestions are welcome in this thread not only from the Regional Governors, SMC and their staffs, but also from the general public.

But please wait for the last Term 7 Chat (currently in progress as I type this) and check the latest turn file prduced from it to end before posting and responding to the following:

As I see it, these are the major issues likely to still be in effect when term 8 begins, in order of priority:

1. War Werrious problem / possiblity of govt collapse.

Regional governors are asked to note the # of unhappy citizens in each city in their province and when > 0, also denote where the unhappiness is coming from. (What % is Give Peace a Chance? What % is No More Draft; Hell No We Won't Go)

2. Getting adequate defenses.

3. Reintegeration of surplus workers.

4. Boosting the economy.

The new term 8 RGs are asked to place the following to the head of the queues split between military and domestic in most cities where the switch wouldn't lose shields.

Military : Infenty (Try to get 5-7 to complete in this coming turn chat)

Domestic : Police Stations in cities without them.

Last edited by joncnunn on 22-01-2003 at 01:06

	18-01-2003 04:56									#2
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you mean placin them on top of the queue, only if we don't wast shields by doing so?

Aidun

	21-01-2003 20:41									#3
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Aidun, yes.

There are some cities which are exceptional that should build other things; RGs should use their judgement.

	21-01-2003 20:42									#4
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FYI, SMC Meshelic has made a few requests in the orders thread for the coming turnchat.

	21-01-2003 20:58									#5
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Posted by Meshelic in the "next turnchat discussion thread" :

quote: Originally posted by Meshelic I humbly request the training and construction of the following units; their birth-city is of no consequence... 5-7 Infantry to support the continued war in Germany 1-2 Ironclads to bolster our current Navy so it may protect our shores (and sink those Japanese ships, which are superior in number) Additional artillery is not necessary, IMHO we have a sufficent artillery corps. However, due to our advancements in technology, Cavalry are becoming rather ancient, especially when thrown against Infantry defenders. I will not request Cavalry to be built during my term. If each RA could authorize building 1 Infantry in their seperate regions, that would most likely suffice, although I understand that this request may not be possible immediately. I will post my review of the military shortly. Thanks - SMC Meshelic

	22-01-2003 00:51									#6
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Thank you Aro and Shiber for posting my unit requests...

	22-01-2003 01:09									#7
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Minor edit to top post to reflect Infentry counts requested.

	22-01-2003 02:39									#8
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Note that the planned Vetos of previous administion builds are now in my orders.

Term 8 Regional Governors, please have your orders reflect these vetos.

Thanks

	22-01-2003 02:49									#9
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Courthouses should remain a priority as well (which I assume would be done for cities w/o police stations OR courthouses ).

A number of cities have such horrendous waste that it would be more efficient to rush a courthouse and rush a police station before having it build anything else. Much of Central Apolyton and Uber Isle falls into this category, though I did do some to move this plan forward during the last 2 turnchats of my administration.

	22-01-2003 03:33									#10
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Uber Island had both Court Houses & Police Stations in all cities before the vetos, and still does now.

The difference there is that I moved the Police Stations were moved up in front of Court Houses there strictly because of War Werrious issues, which will continue to increase until a Peace Treaty with Germany is signed.

	22-01-2003 05:23									#11
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Hmmm... for some reason, I was thinking that Courthouses were required before Police Stations. It makes the most sense to build PS before Court. I will write that into my orders.

	23-01-2003 21:15									#12
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Just a few minor points, questions and arguements (didn't ET tell you I do this sorta thing?)

The building of Police Stations before Courthouses-
When this question is first posed, it looks simple. Police Stations do more. They do everything a Courthouse does and more. The problem- They cost twice as much. I bring two prime examples of where it is completely wrong to build Police Stations before Courthouses. Banana HQ and our Glorious Apolyton. Both are set to finish Courthouse next turn. Our DM, Joncnunn, has saw fit to order the switch from these Courthouses to Police Stations. A switch will not loose any shield storage in either, however, the effect of not having a Courthouse while the Police Station waits to be completed is staggering. Building a Courthouse will take 7 more turns to complete. That works out to alot of lossed potential. About 4 shields to each cities production (2 from reduced loss then +1 for Fact and +1 for Hydro) per turn (4x7=28 two cities means 56 lost shields). A Courthouse will also save about 6 and 8 commerce to Banana HQ and Apolyton respectivly. That works out to be (for Banana HQ) 6 Com x 7 Turns = 42 com total. With Sci slider set at 80%, that = (80% of 42) 33.6 beakers. Now take the beakers and add 50% (for the Lib = 16.8 beakers) and we get 50.4 beakers Lost. Lytons = (20% of 42) 8.4 Lytons. Now add city Improvements (50% for market=4.2, 50% for Bank=4.2) = 16.8 Lytons Lost.
(Now for Apolyton) 8 Com x 7 turns = 56 com. 80% of 56 = 44.8 beakers. Add imrovements (both Lib and Uni) = 89.6 beakers lost. Lytons: 20% of 56 = 11.2 + Improvements (Market and bank) =22.4 Lytons lost. To make matters worse, both of the Courthouses were rushed last turn to be finished this turn for 268 L each!
Now this is just an example. I am sure that in places like Uber Island the amount of loss for building a Police Station over a Courthouse is much worse.

The Building of Banks before Universities-
We currently have the Sci Slider set at 80% Sci and 20% Tax (and I don't see it dropping anywhere in the next 20 turns). This is a simple math question (unlike the Court v Pol as above) and I will use our situation in Rheims as an example. Rheims is currently producing 54 commerce per turn (with 1 lost to corruption) and has a net of 53. With the Sci slider set at 80%, we end up with 42.4 beakers and 10.6 Lytons. If we build a bank, we get +50% of 10.6, or 5.3 extra Lytons. If we build a university, we get +50% of 42.4, or 21.2 extra Beakers. Which would be more beneficial with our Slider set the way it is?

Not Building Hospitals immediately after Factories-
All our size 12 cities are stagnated until they build hospitals. All the extra food they produce is going to waste. Its not doing anything. If we build Hospitals as soon as we build factories, our populations will become more productive because the extra food they produce will actually be doing something!

One city specific gripe, Timeline-
This city has everything built except for a police station and hospital. I think that a hospital should still be built first for the reasons I gave in the above paragraph. I placed Wall Street in the Q because the city has no pressing need for a Police Station. It only has 4 lost shields and 5 lost commerce. A PS will only give about 4 extra shields (big deal when it already nets 54) and will save only 2 com (which would be eaten up by the maint cost of a PS). Once Timeline starts to work of WS, it will only take a max of 6 turns to build. Additional, we can't use a GL to rush WS like Joncnunn said in the orders thread as saving him for a Wonder of the World (most likely the UN) has won out.

Joncnunn- Just so you know, I have gone and made changes to my builds and "Q's" in my placeholder as you ordered, but I think you should look at these arguments.

My wrists hurt from all that typing....

	23-01-2003 21:39									#13
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I agree with everything said in the above post.

Last edited by Shiber on 23-01-2003 at 21:57

	23-01-2003 22:07									#14
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Thank you donegeal
Timeline is an excellent candidate for WS. It can build it fast, and corruption is low enough so the PS is not a priority. Generally speaking our hospital build rate only needs to be fast enough to keep our beaker rate above what we need to do techs in 4 (turns). We will need more hospitals over time, but do not need all of them at once.

An example of a priority hospital is "Here it is". This city with a hospital and worker addback will be a shield monster. Not as big as Ferropolis, but still impressive. It is one of the reasons I fought so long and hard to get the hills and mountains of old france enabled via palace move.

	23-01-2003 22:56									#15
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quote: Originally posted by roadcage An example of a priority hospital is "Here it is". This city with a hospital and worker addback will be a shield monster. Not as big as Ferropolis, but still impressive. It is one of the reasons I fought so long and hard to get the hills and mountains of old france enabled via palace move.

I concur, roadcage.

Currently Here It Is is building a Hospital, with completion in 3 turns. I read about our SMC request for a few more Infantry, and Here It Is is one of few cities in Old France in a position to help out, so I changed the current build to an Infantry, to be completed in 2 turns. Next, our DM ordered that it build a Police Station before a Hospital, so my order for the Here It Is queue is now: Infantry, Police Station, Hospital, Colosseum. I didn't really have a problem with the counter-order because the city is a production monster, and will be finished each the Police Station and Hospital in 4 turns anyways.

	23-01-2003 23:11									#16
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I've sent a PM changing the rushed CourtHouse with 0 shields that were changed to Pol Stations back to Court House with Pol Station as the next build.

In cases where the Court House wasn't rushed waiting to be built, I'm prefering the Police Station strictly due to the war werrious issues. I've also placed Police Stations & Court Houses on the list to be rushed if we get a wind fall of money.

Banks & Universities: Feel free to build them in either order.

Hospitals: If we didn't have a war werriousness problem I would agree with you. As soon as we get peace with Germany I intend to move Hospitals up and add workers to numerous cities.

Removal of CIA & WS from the queue: Done to encourage the use of the GLs for them. They were so far back they weren't going to start in this coming turn chat anyway.

quote: Originally posted by donegeal Just a few minor points, questions and arguements (didn't ET tell you I do this sorta thing?) The building of Police Stations before Courthouses- When this question is first posed, it looks simple. Police Stations do more. They do everything a Courthouse does and more. The problem- They cost twice as much. I bring two prime examples of where it is completely wrong to build Police Stations before Courthouses. Banana HQ and our Glorious Apolyton. Both are set to finish Courthouse next turn. Our DM, Joncnunn, has saw fit to order the switch from these Courthouses to Police Stations. A switch will not loose any shield storage in either, however, the effect of not having a Courthouse while the Police Station waits to be completed is staggering. Building a Courthouse will take 7 more turns to complete. That works out to alot of lossed potential. About 4 shields to each cities production (2 from reduced loss then +1 for Fact and +1 for Hydro) per turn (4x7=28 two cities means 56 lost shields). A Courthouse will also save about 6 and 8 commerce to Banana HQ and Apolyton respectivly. That works out to be (for Banana HQ) 6 Com x 7 Turns = 42 com total. With Sci slider set at 80%, that = (80% of 42) 33.6 beakers. Now take the beakers and add 50% (for the Lib = 16.8 beakers) and we get 50.4 beakers Lost. Lytons = (20% of 42) 8.4 Lytons. Now add city Improvements (50% for market=4.2, 50% for Bank=4.2) = 16.8 Lytons Lost. (Now for Apolyton) 8 Com x 7 turns = 56 com. 80% of 56 = 44.8 beakers. Add imrovements (both Lib and Uni) = 89.6 beakers lost. Lytons: 20% of 56 = 11.2 + Improvements (Market and bank) =22.4 Lytons lost. To make matters worse, both of the Courthouses were rushed last turn to be finished this turn for 268 L each! Now this is just an example. I am sure that in places like Uber Island the amount of loss for building a Police Station over a Courthouse is much worse. The Building of Banks before Universities- We currently have the Sci Slider set at 80% Sci and 20% Tax (and I don't see it dropping anywhere in the next 20 turns). This is a simple math question (unlike the Court v Pol as above) and I will use our situation in Rheims as an example. Rheims is currently producing 54 commerce per turn (with 1 lost to corruption) and has a net of 53. With the Sci slider set at 80%, we end up with 42.4 beakers and 10.6 Lytons. If we build a bank, we get +50% of 10.6, or 5.3 extra Lytons. If we build a university, we get +50% of 42.4, or 21.2 extra Beakers. Which would be more beneficial with our Slider set the way it is? Not Building Hospitals immediately after Factories- All our size 12 cities are stagnated until they build hospitals. All the extra food they produce is going to waste. Its not doing anything. If we build Hospitals as soon as we build factories, our populations will become more productive because the extra food they produce will actually be doing something! One city specific gripe, Timeline- This city has everything built except for a police station and hospital. I think that a hospital should still be built first for the reasons I gave in the above paragraph. I placed Wall Street in the Q because the city has no pressing need for a Police Station. It only has 4 lost shields and 5 lost commerce. A PS will only give about 4 extra shields (big deal when it already nets 54) and will save only 2 com (which would be eaten up by the maint cost of a PS). Once Timeline starts to work of WS, it will only take a max of 6 turns to build. Additional, we can't use a GL to rush WS like Joncnunn said in the orders thread as saving him for a Wonder of the World (most likely the UN) has won out. Joncnunn- Just so you know, I have gone and made changes to my builds and "Q's" in my placeholder as you ordered, but I think you should look at these arguments. My wrists hurt from all that typing....

	24-01-2003 01:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Just a few minor points, questions and arguements (didn't ET tell you I do this sorta thing?) The building of Police Stations before Courthouses- When this question is first posed, it looks simple. Police Stations do more. They do everything a Courthouse does and more. The problem- They cost twice as much. I bring two prime examples of where it is completely wrong to build Police Stations before Courthouses. Banana HQ and our Glorious Apolyton. Both are set to finish Courthouse next turn. Our DM, Joncnunn, has saw fit to order the switch from these Courthouses to Police Stations. A switch will not loose any shield storage in either, however, the effect of not having a Courthouse while the Police Station waits to be completed is staggering. Building a Courthouse will take 7 more turns to complete. That works out to alot of lossed potential. About 4 shields to each cities production (2 from reduced loss then +1 for Fact and +1 for Hydro) per turn (4x7=28 two cities means 56 lost shields). A Courthouse will also save about 6 and 8 commerce to Banana HQ and Apolyton respectivly. That works out to be (for Banana HQ) 6 Com x 7 Turns = 42 com total. With Sci slider set at 80%, that = (80% of 42) 33.6 beakers. Now take the beakers and add 50% (for the Lib = 16.8 beakers) and we get 50.4 beakers Lost. Lytons = (20% of 42) 8.4 Lytons. Now add city Improvements (50% for market=4.2, 50% for Bank=4.2) = 16.8 Lytons Lost. (Now for Apolyton) 8 Com x 7 turns = 56 com. 80% of 56 = 44.8 beakers. Add imrovements (both Lib and Uni) = 89.6 beakers lost. Lytons: 20% of 56 = 11.2 + Improvements (Market and bank) =22.4 Lytons lost. To make matters worse, both of the Courthouses were rushed last turn to be finished this turn for 268 L each! Now this is just an example. I am sure that in places like Uber Island the amount of loss for building a Police Station over a Courthouse is much worse. The Building of Banks before Universities- We currently have the Sci Slider set at 80% Sci and 20% Tax (and I don't see it dropping anywhere in the next 20 turns). This is a simple math question (unlike the Court v Pol as above) and I will use our situation in Rheims as an example. Rheims is currently producing 54 commerce per turn (with 1 lost to corruption) and has a net of 53. With the Sci slider set at 80%, we end up with 42.4 beakers and 10.6 Lytons. If we build a bank, we get +50% of 10.6, or 5.3 extra Lytons. If we build a university, we get +50% of 42.4, or 21.2 extra Beakers. Which would be more beneficial with our Slider set the way it is? Not Building Hospitals immediately after Factories- All our size 12 cities are stagnated until they build hospitals. All the extra food they produce is going to waste. Its not doing anything. If we build Hospitals as soon as we build factories, our populations will become more productive because the extra food they produce will actually be doing something! One city specific gripe, Timeline- This city has everything built except for a police station and hospital. I think that a hospital should still be built first for the reasons I gave in the above paragraph. I placed Wall Street in the Q because the city has no pressing need for a Police Station. It only has 4 lost shields and 5 lost commerce. A PS will only give about 4 extra shields (big deal when it already nets 54) and will save only 2 com (which would be eaten up by the maint cost of a PS). Once Timeline starts to work of WS, it will only take a max of 6 turns to build. Additional, we can't use a GL to rush WS like Joncnunn said in the orders thread as saving him for a Wonder of the World (most likely the UN) has won out. Joncnunn- Just so you know, I have gone and made changes to my builds and "Q's" in my placeholder as you ordered, but I think you should look at these arguments. My wrists hurt from all that typing....

hi ,

sounds great , lets hope its all done in this term

have a nice day

	24-01-2003 05:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Removal of CIA & WS from the queue: Done to encourage the use of the GLs for them.

Good try, but you should just go ahead and build Wall Street. It's critical enough that we should just build the stupid thing and get that bonus income... it's well worth the moderate shield expense.

Shooting ourselves in the feet in the hopes of the pro-use-of-GL-now side of a the political argument gaining a card to play in that debate is, in short, rather misguided...

	24-01-2003 05:45									#19
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I've sent a PM changing the rushed CourtHouse with 0 shields that were changed to Pol Stations back to Court House with Pol Station as the next build. Banks & Universities: Feel free to build them in either order.

Yeah!

quote: originally posted by joncnunn Hospitals: If we didn't have a war werriousness problem I would agree with you. As soon as we get peace with Germany I intend to move Hospitals up and add workers to numerous cities.

Okay, good argument... (for now )

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn In cases where the Court House wasn't rushed waiting to be built, I'm prefering the Police Station strictly due to the war werrious issues. I've also placed Police Stations & Court Houses on the list to be rushed if we get a wind fall of money. Removal of CIA & WS from the queue: Done to encourage the use of the GLs for them. They were so far back they weren't going to start in this coming turn chat anyway.

My only argument against this is by the time it gets economical to rush the Police Stations, the war would be over (or nearly). That is a lot of lost Lytons, Beakers and Shields. On the other hand, I have to pick my battles...

WS is not too far back. Our Glorious President wants to finish this turn and play 5 more (not likely to happen Aro). With the way its set up now, WS would be started half way through the chat. Even earlier if you forgo the hospital (as per your hospital argument) and start building it now. It would then be done one turn after the chat was over. Yet again...that is all I'll say on the matter (for now). I still have to pick my battles...

	24-01-2003 05:59									#20
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal WS is not too far back. Our Glorious President wants to finish this turn and play 5 more (not likely to happen Aro). With the way its set up now, WS would be started half way through the chat. Even earlier if you forgo the hospital (as per your hospital argument) and start building it now. It would then be done one turn after the chat was over. Yet again...that is all I'll say on the matter (for now). I still have to pick my battles...

I'm willing to fight this one with you

Put WS back in the queue... it should be a national priority more important than a single hospital (even though each hospital is pretty important). It won't take very long to build (as donegeal said) and it's national importance is quite high.

The reason a GL isn't being used for it is precisely that it IS easy to build. So build it!

	24-01-2003 05:59									#21
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I agree with Arnelos. Money is never enough, and we're loosing that bonus income without any reason...
Could we buld it without harm your plans, joncnunn?

	24-01-2003 06:25									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I'm willing to fight this one with you

Hmmm... another one of those rare moments when Arne and I agree on something. Maybe the cold is because hell did freeze over...

	24-01-2003 21:11									#23
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Ok, Timeline vetoed to place Wall Street in the queue between Pol & Hospital.

	24-01-2003 21:46									#24
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I posted RA orders for old Germany.
I naturally insisted on early culture (Temples and Cathedrals), and on happiness with Marketplaces. Also, I already ordered to build libraries once more essantial buildings are done, since it wouls be good to have an economic powerhouse so far from Macross City.

Because of time constraints, I didn't put too much thought in this. If you have any womments, please don't hesitate

	24-01-2003 23:08									#25
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I have a womment!



thats a furry animal, right?

	25-01-2003 00:28									#26
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Anoucement of Opening for New Germany RG.

If interested, please PM me.

	25-01-2003 01:20									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Good try, but you should just go ahead and build Wall Street. It's critical enough that we should just build the stupid thing and get that bonus income... it's well worth the moderate shield expense. Shooting ourselves in the feet in the hopes of the pro-use-of-GL-now side of a the political argument gaining a card to play in that debate is, in short, rather misguided...

hi ,

indeed , ......

have a nice day

	25-01-2003 02:29									#28
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After the current chat now in progress ends, could I get a report on the following from the RG's: (Post in this thread)

1. Our worker count break down(native & foriegn)

2. Cities with fresh water access with pop below 6.

3. Cities with fresh water, Temple, Market Place, and Catherrial with pop below 8.

4. Update on the current level of War Werriousness.

Also, perhaps The Forbiden City would be a good city to build the CIA right in front of the Hospital?

Last edited by joncnunn on 25-01-2003 at 03:46

	27-01-2003 00:41									#29
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Old Germany, with the 1330 AB save

1. Our worker count break down(native & foriegn)
For the whole Civ :
65 Apolytonians
33 French
13 Persians
8 Babylonians
6 Germans
5 Americans
3 Greeks
2 English
1 Roman

2. Cities with fresh water access with pop below 6.
Berlin
Neo Frankfurt
Hannover

3. Cities with fresh water, Temple, Market Place, and Cathedral with pop below 8.
None in Old Germany

4. Update on the current level of War Werriousness.
25% in Berlin
37% in Leipzig

	27-01-2003 00:53									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Old Germany, with the 1330 AB save 1. Our worker count break down(native & foriegn) For the whole Civ : 65 Apolytonians 33 French 13 Persians 8 Babylonians 6 Germans 5 Americans 3 Greeks 2 English 1 Roman 2. Cities with fresh water access with pop below 6. Berlin Neo Frankfurt Hannover 3. Cities with fresh water, Temple, Market Place, and Cathedral with pop below 8. None in Old Germany 4. Update on the current level of War Werriousness. 25% in Berlin 37% in Leipzig

hi ,

so where are some workers going to join a city , and who is going to join

have a nice day