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flash9286
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I personally disgree with race being a factor in being accepted to a college. I think it would be much fairer if you got extra points if you came from a low-income part of the country, becuase everybody that lives in America knows that if you live in a low-income region the schools arent as good as a middle-income region. Plus all kind of races live in low-income regions.
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Guynemer
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Already a thread on this.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=74137
You wouldn't know it to listen to the jerk-off media debates, but UM does give extra points to low-income students. In fact, you can't get points for both low-income and being a minority--poor white kids get as many extra points as anyone else who applies to UM.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibsie
I'm always seeing people discuss AA as if it applies to blacks and NO-ONE else (Well, maybe some Hispanics)... |
AA benefits everyone except whites.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:25
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AA for men . .interesting concept considering that there are more women than men now performing better in high schools, graduating college etc. In theory, the old methods of proving women were subject to systemic or adverse effect discrimination could be trotted out now to say the system now favors women  .
Seriously though, I have no problem with the concept of affirmative action,when it is giving a helping hand to those that suffered adverse circumstances BUT I have seen lots of problems with the implementation. For example, the daughter of a dentist got all sorts of financial aid as part of a program to encourage black students to go to law school.
I dislike affirmative action when it acts in a fashion to disadvantage ANY person in a substantive way. For example when on the "bubble" of college admission, I have no problem with favoring a minority or disadvantaged group . Ties go to the minority, for example.
Financial aid should be colorblind for the mmost part and go to needy students period. But again I have no problem with a very slight favoritism-- It won't come close to balancing the crap many minorities have to face their entire lives.
Substantive disadvantage IMHO occurrs when
-- Many needy students can't attend school because funding was appropriated for AA programs
-- a totally qualified candidate is denied a job ( university lecturer in a specific field while pursuing doctoral studies) because they were holding the job open until next year in the hope that a female or minority might apply
-- Total exclusion of a class of people-- A teacher's college announced they would be hiring all female staff until they have achieved 50% female staff . Estimates indicate it may be as many as 10 years before they next hire a man
Last edited by Flubber on 22-01-2003 at 03:33
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Gibsie
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all over the proverbial shop
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia Some whites benefit (i.e. females), but most don't. |
So half of whites could potentially benefit? Damn, that's virtually none!
Last edited by Gibsie on 22-01-2003 at 03:54
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Wernazuma III
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Decolonize!
Aug 2000
time: 06:25
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Well, from my point of view, AA is not in itself bad.
I don't know how exactly I portray American reality with my post, I'm not living there. But I'll still try to show some reasons why Affirmative Action should not be simply considered a racist agenda.
People from some minority races still suffer, beside the economic situation, from a cultural climate within their communities that won't make it seem an option to attend higher education - it's the "better stick to your own people, out there they won't do you no good"-attitude which is also partially responsible for the still existing factual segregation in many areas (the other factor for segregation is that often people "out there" will really do no good).
Now, AA is a way to try to overcome fears by giving some incentive to those groups who are unlikely to even try to get to university. Blacks have, even compared to whites of the same social class, worse marks, because - on average - education is considered less to be a way out of bad situation while for whites this seems to be more likely to be regarded as such. Regarding the astounding marks of Asian Americans, it seems that they're confident that a good education will neutralize any possible adverse social effects by racial prejudices. Blacks and Hispanics seem more often to be resignating and blaming their social situation on race only, education not being a factor. Of course, race IS a factor, but at the same time, education WOULD make it better in the overall account. Now, AA is a try also to break this kind of thinking by making it easier.
AA recognizes the fact that members of some ethnic groups are more likely to make a career through education than others. Now, it would be racistic to suppose that such differences have something to do with the intellectual potential of a race! Contrary, AA acknowledges SOCIAL or CULTURAL factors in minority groups to be responsible for such empiric realities and tries to correct the problem. Thus making it not different than any system that only takes into account the economic situatino or the school-type a pupil attended.
That's the very reason why Asian Americans are, like Caucasians, excluded from AA. Once the empirical data of educational differences between races is getting smaller, AA would cease to be OK of course. If you accept economic situation to be taken into account you'd also have to consider social factors with an ethnic background unless you're a racist.
Really, next time Bush will just say that those who have the best marks should be accepted (well, I understand that his daddy didn't take such a step )
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Charlemagne120
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Booyah!!!
Jan 2003
time: 23:25
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AA is such a load of crap! I mean honestly all these minorities and all are always complaining and arguing for wanting to be treated equally? Want equality? then get the same points as us white guys!
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlemagne120
AA is such a load of crap! I mean honestly all these minorities and all are always complaining and arguing for wanting to be treated equally? Want equality? then get the same points as us white guys! |
As soon as you volunteer to be a minority, I'll take your ever-so-deep-and-profound statement seriously.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibsie
So half of whites could potentially benefit? Damn, that's virtually none! |
Are we talking about who does benefit, or who could potentially benefit? I thought it was the former. Who could potentially benefit is irrelevant anyway. I would be interested to see what percentage of the women who have benefitted from AA are white, and for that matter, what percentage of white women have benefitted from AA. Or how about a racial breakdown of all AA beneficiaries in comparison to a racial breakdown of the USA? I doubt in any of these cases that the white percentage would be significant.
Last edited by Caligastia on 22-01-2003 at 06:39
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Charlemagne120
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Booyah!!!
Jan 2003
time: 23:25
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oh surprise surprise ur from where Guynemer? ann arbor? oh sounds like someones a little PO'ed at ur hometown univ. there in mich.
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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:25
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Responce to Al Speer's thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
I said something like this before here and nobody seemed to understand what i was trying to say... |
Do we ever?
quote:
First to assume a few things... AA is a system of admitting additional people of a certain group into a college. |
That's not the complete definition, but ok...
quote:
Most minorities are legitimately able to go to these colleegs on their own. The problem is there are some who would not have been accepted if it were not for AA. These people are at the bottom end of the spectrum in tersm of academic requirements and were primarily accepted because of their race. |
In this paragraph you seem to say two things.
A) If it weren't for AA, legitimately eligible blacks (regardless of race) wouldn't be accepted because of racist whites. (This I can agree on)
B) Those that do get in are the academically lesser of the pool. (This is where you lose me)
quote:
As AA is concerned with admissions only, those people who only got ito college because of AA MUST have sufficient wealth because:
1) They barely got into college in the first place, merit-wise being judged differently from other students. |
How does that support your claim that they must be wealthy? Can't this apply to poor minorities as well?
quote:
2) It can be assumed that they, thus, are not merit-wise eligible for scholarships. |
Not necessarily true. And you certainly give no proof.
quote:
3) It can thus be assumed that those who benefit from AA must be upper class minorities. |
Don't know how you got to this conclusion.
quote:
AA does NOT help the following people:
1) poor minorities who have worked hard and achieved good merit as they will be qualified to go to these colleges without their race being taken into account. |
Not necessarily, but we'll run with the assumption...
quote:
They will also be able to get scholarships, whether need-based or meritous. |
need based is still based on merit, to an extent, and working hard doesn't necessarily mean the greatest SATs or GPA, which would negate your second claim.
quote:
2) Poor minorities who can just barely get into college and are able to get in with AA but, being poor, can not afford college and do not have the merit for scholarships. There are also only so many need-based scholarships to go around. |
I don't see how this applies for low cost, local, community, or 'in-state' schools. For private schools I can see your point, but otherwise, no.
quote:
3) Whites who get shafted with AA anyway |
Agreed
Hell and I'm Anti-AA for anything but Economics.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:25
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quote:
) If it weren't for AA, legitimately eligible blacks (regardless of race) wouldn't be accepted because of racist whites. (This I can agree on) |
No I was saying that, in order to achieve certain numbers of minorities, schools have to judge minorities differently... for example, with Michigan, being a minority gives you 20 points on their system which is worth more than a perfect score on the SAT's... so minorities can get accepted with LESS merits than other students.
quote:
B) Those that do get in are the academically lesser of the pool. (This is where you lose me) |
See above.
That should explain everythign else
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Capt Dizle
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Afirmative action is as immoral as slavery and not only should be outlawed, a blood sacrifice is needed to cleanse the stain from this great nation.
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Caligastia
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Seeing as I edited this so long after I originally posted it, I'll give it a bump.
quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Are we talking about who does benefit, or who could potentially benefit? I thought it was the former. Who could potentially benefit is irrelevant anyway. I would be interested to see what percentage of the women who have benefited from AA are white, and for that matter, what percentage of white women have benefited from AA. Or how about a racial breakdown of all AA beneficiaries in comparison to a racial breakdown of the USA? I doubt in any of these cases that the white percentage would be significant. |
Which was in response to Gibsie...
quote:
Originally posted by Gibsie
So half of whites could potentially benefit? Damn, that's virtually none! |
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22-01-2003 01:40
My thoughts EXACTLY
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