23-01-2003 12:21									#61
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Funny, all the Brits are whining while I'm wondering how I'm going to pay my current debt of ~$50k, never mind what the total is going to be once I'm done. This is including $12k a year in scholarships.

You Limeys have it easy.

	23-01-2003 15:32									#62
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To be fair PH, if you moved south and got a job at a biotech place you'd be able to afford to live down here. The Biochem companies are totally disproportionately based in the south east.

	23-01-2003 15:33									#63
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Is he actually unwilling to move the 300 km or whatever? You have to go where the opportunities present themselve, PH...

	23-01-2003 15:41									#64
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Cost of living is hugely different over those 300km though.

He might be more up for a move when he has sorted his head out.

	23-01-2003 16:44									#65
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Basically it all boils down to "who pays?"

The choices are

1 The student studies now and pays later.

2 The parents pay now.

3 The government pays and raises the money through taxation of people who may or may not have benefited from grants etc. in the past.

I dropped out of university before completing a degree (in the days when all the fees were paid and they gave you some grant towards living costs) but I have paid enough in taxes since not to feel guilty about it.

In the UK we rarely pay for anything out of one pot of money and don't seem to have a consensus on how to pay for this one.

	23-01-2003 17:08									#66
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Nice extraction of the argument Cerberus. I'd go for choice 1 - it's the fairest way for sure.

	23-01-2003 17:16									#67
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Everyone benefits from having a well educated workforce who are all paying more tax because they are producing more than they would otherwise have done.

	23-01-2003 17:21									#68
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"Everyone benefits from having a well educated workforce who are all paying more tax because they are producing more than they would otherwise have done."

No one is denying this.

	23-01-2003 17:23									#69
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So consider it a government investment in future tax dollars.

	23-01-2003 17:27									#70
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While the country/government benefits somewhat from my obtaining a degree, I benefit more. It's only fair that I (not my parents) pay towards the cost of it as well.

	23-01-2003 17:28									#71
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You will, with your future tax dollars.

	23-01-2003 17:33									#72
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Then you are offering a tax break for those who go to university.

For ****'s sake, stop repeating the shite that has spilled out earlier in this thread and read the Times article.

	23-01-2003 17:50									#73
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So? Uni students are doing something positive but are not payed for it. The tax break relative to those who earned the same amount but who didn't go to Uni is in recognition of this.

Jesus, Bod's are you always this dull or do you just enjoy being a tortoise to my hare?

	23-01-2003 17:59									#74
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Absolutely. The government is making a brilliant investment in the future of the country by paying for higher education and the best thing is that the students benefit as well!

I read the Times article. Thought it missed a lot of major flaws, including the one Boddies still hasn't addressed of the impartiality of research.

	23-01-2003 20:12									#75
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Impartiality of research? Explain.

	23-01-2003 20:38									#76
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Actually from this thread, we've had several examples showing that its not always a good investment. Also that it tends to encourage people into unsuccessful degree attempts.

the "universtity degree = good" is a big load of crap. Most often spewed by people interested in having a taxpayer-funded education since they are "helping society" by sucking up that free education. Booshwa. Bunch a lazy poofs.

	23-01-2003 20:39									#77
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Yeah, if Rich was paying for his degree, he'd get a better quality one and doubtlessly wouldn't have dropped out after a couple of unhappy months.

	23-01-2003 20:47									#78
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Easy...stud.

1. The argument holds for a group. You don't know about individual cases.

2. He was there more than a few months. The Ph.D. can be a hard slog.

	23-01-2003 21:25									#79
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I am vaguely worried because I'm planning on doing the same, or very similar, degree to what Rich did. I love ya hun but you aren't exactly an inspiring role model for future biochemists. :-)

Of course, the circumstances are different:
1) I live closer to the South-East and have no qualms about moving.
2) I'm a good many years away from my PhD and a lot changes in that time.
3) I am the Starchild and the Destiny of Heaven bends to my Will.

Though i don't think the last one would look that great on my CV.

	23-01-2003 22:15									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Impartiality of research? Explain.

Read my posts.

Private universities in the US get sponsored in addition to students paying for their education. This can have an affect on what they research.

	23-01-2003 23:38									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Yeah, if Rich was paying for his degree, he'd get a better quality one and doubtlessly wouldn't have dropped out after a couple of unhappy months.

Let's get a few things clear here Stew:

(1)PhDs are a completely different kettle of fish. It would cost them a lot more to employ a research assistant to do the work than a PhD student grant, which they get help off with as well.

(2)The department I worked in tried to cut as many financial corners with my PhD as they possibly could. Including poor supervision, facilities and equipment. I left not due to the fact that I couldn't do the research, but it was actually impossible for me to actually get anything done with the conditions.

I was not an undergraduate like you Stew, I actually worked, but when you are getting nothing back in return and no assistance or feedback, when you feel like you are fumbling in the dark, then you are bound to get very pissed off, as I did, and left. Quite frankly Stew I have explained this to you enough times, and I don't expect to hear you spouting this crap.

	25-01-2003 08:50									#82
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IMHO very few people should be allowed to go to a university. The reasons why are amply given by this guy

http://www.freeradical.co.nz/content/33/33sechrest.html

I teach at university and he's largely right (and I, like him, get very good ratings as a teacher - so its not that). Most of the students just aren't interested in anything other than themselves and their grades.

Most people should go to polytechnics where they will receive job training which they should pay for. This has nothing to do with the social benefit of having very bright people conduct distinterested inquiry into such subjects as philosophy, classics, history and English lit. The very bright should be accepted into a university and not have to pay a cent - society gets full value out of these people and they get very little in return.

The present system of using universities as glorified job training centres is killing them as the students gravitate towards the "money making" disciplines. More to the point, most politicians are now ignorant pigs (this means you GWB) who have no idea of what they are doing with tertiary policy.

So there....

	25-01-2003 09:30									#83
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The private school next door has two Irish girls, and they were talking about the Irish system, which sounds great.

In fact, there is a lot to like about Ireland: great political system, great education system, great health care, low crime, low unemployment...

If only the Irish needed to learn English....

	25-01-2003 10:04									#84
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quote: If only the Irish needed to learn English....

Ever been there?

;D

	25-01-2003 16:10									#85
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An interesting point Agathon. I would have been one of those people who would 'make it' to university in the system you describe, and I had the interest in my subject too, but I found that the nature of the system beat any interest out of me. You are amply rewarded by gravitating towards those money-oriented disciplines. I didn't do that, and feel that I have had a raw deal compared to some of my friends who were less altruistic. So what is the right thing to do? I ask myself this now. If you try and do the right thing, there are so many who will take advantage of that.

	25-01-2003 16:45									#86
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There is a guy that works in building mainenance at the mega store I work at. He gets $10+/hr polishing floors, cleaning crappers, and I figured he was doing fairly well...I got talking to him and he's still living w/ his parents, why? "Because I have alot of bills" Bills? How can you have bills if you're living with your parents?

"College loans"

	25-01-2003 17:28									#87
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Well he sounds in a similar situation to me (same pay although my job isn't quite as bad as that), I am still plagued with debt but I can put it off more easily that he can.

	25-01-2003 18:01									#88
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It's unfortunate. If he had found out that college wasn't for him before he had incurred all those bills then he wouldn't have the dragging debt...it really holds him back. I feel for you guys.

I don't know if college was for me, I'll never find out. My family situation when I was young was too insane for any good to come of it. I joined the army and had to work right away on getting out...25 years ago. Been working ever since...BUT...I didn't have to carry a big debt right away, college or otherwise, and that allowed me to get into a house fairly quick. That house I bought for $65,000 and sold for $172,000 five years and alot of sweat later...

Unfortunately since I didn't go to college, or finish high school, I'm not too smart... Just fairly well off, and never had to kiss anyones ass I didn't find terribly cute.

Not a bad life. Provost, what I know of you I think you will do well in ways that alot of people will never understand.

Please excuse the frigging life story, I don't know what got into me.

	25-01-2003 18:28									#89
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Well it's very hard to see what is going on with my life. At least now I have the ability to challenge my negative thoughts on the matter, but it is still rather bewildering.

Life can work out perculiarly sometimes, you never know where it is going...

	25-01-2003 18:38									#90
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Sunshine, cold beers, a pretty girl...



Life is easy once it's put in simple terms.