23-01-2003 22:40									#31
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Get some math skills. Really. This isn't that hard.

Take A who makes 15000 a year and B who makes 1000000 a year. Make up some numbers for personal exemption. Say it's at 10000 right now, income over that is taxed at 20% until 100000 and then it's taxed at 40%.

A pays 1000 a year in taxes, B pays 378000 a year.

Increasing the personal exemption to 15000 a year means A pays 0 in taxes, B pays 376000. A's tax burden has been reduced 100%, B's has been reduced 0.52%. B has of course gained 2000$ while A has only gained 1000$, but the impact is much heavier on A than on B. The current tax cuts are equivalent to A and B both getting a similar percentage of tax back (ignoring dividend tax).

See the difference, John?

	23-01-2003 23:20									#32
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OMG, did you just fake some math and deduction figures to prove a non-existant point? !!!!! Is there anybody else here who thinks such an approach is as intellectually dishonest as I?

For what it's worth, I don't have to make up numbers to prove my point. Given a real-world family (mine) filling out a 1040 form with your income assumptions gives me the answers

Income: $15,000
Standard Deduction: $7,850
Exemptions: $9,000
Total Income Deductions and Exemptions: $16,850
Taxable Income: 0
Total Tax: 0
AMT: 0
Total tax taken from paychecks (using tax table): $1,954
Total Refund: $1,954

Obviously, raising the exemption on me or my wife or my kids will have no effect on taxes. Given your example, it is quite possible for me to get a LARGER refund than what I actually paid in taxes (using child-care and education tax credits and the like). I did not use these credits because then I would be faking my maths.

I'm bowing out of this thread - you may continue your discussion without me. I cannot and will not participate in a debate with people who LITERALLY pull facts and figures out of air.

	23-01-2003 23:29									#33
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Really now. 9000$ in deductions on a 15000$ paycheck. Think that through again.

What exactly would that 15000$ income person be writing 9000$ off on, sweetheart? Thank you, come again.

9000$ in deductions is reasonable for somebody making 70000+, not 15000.

So bullshit.

	23-01-2003 23:30									#34
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So according to you the average minimum wage earner with a full time job pays 0$ in federal taxes?

	23-01-2003 23:32									#35
	Remove this text

I've yet to ever read a Tom Tomorrow comic with comedic elements.

Maybe it's his lame-ass name that puts me off...

or perhaps political pandering...

Hell, it just ain't funny. They're lame stereotype jokes for the most part.

	23-01-2003 23:34									#36
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Obfuscation, obfuscation obfuscation.

Anybody with the math skills of an 11 year-old and the patience to think about it for 30 seconds can tell you that raising the personal exemption has a larger proportional impact on the tax burden of a lower-income family than that of a higher-income family, while chopping off the top brackets has a larger proportional impact on the tax burden of a higher-income family than on the lower-income family...

	23-01-2003 23:36									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Really now. 9000$ in deductions on a 15000$ paycheck. Think that through again. What exactly would that 15000$ income person be writing 9000$ off on, sweetheart? Thank you, come again. 9000$ in deductions is reasonable for somebody making 70000+, not 15000. So bullshit.

Fill out the form. Don't come back to me until you do so.

To answer your question re: the $9,000. You get a $7,350 personal deduction for filing Married, jointly. In addition to that, you get a $3,000 exemption for every person in your household*, including yourself. I have 3 people in my household. Ergo, $9,000. That raises my income deductions to $16,000+, making my taxable income $0.

You see what happens when you don't FAKE your arguments?

*There are exceptions, but none of them apply in my case (i.e., Sophie isn't off at school, away from the house over 1/2 the year. If she was, I couldn't claim her as an exemption).

	23-01-2003 23:40									#38
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Frogger Obfuscation, obfuscation obfuscation. Anybody with the math skills of an 11 year-old and the patience to think about it for 30 seconds can tell you that raising the personal exemption has a larger proportional impact on the tax burden of a lower-income family than that of a higher-income family, while chopping off the top brackets has a larger proportional impact on the tax burden of a higher-income family than on the lower-income family...

And anybody who actually does the work will tell you that this is not necessarily so.

That fact is independent of your "logic".

	23-01-2003 23:52									#39
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Fill out the form. Don't come back to me until you do so. To answer your question re: the $9,000. You get a $7,350 personal deduction for filing Married, jointly. In addition to that, you get a $3,000 exemption for every person in your household*, including yourself. I have 3 people in my household. Ergo, $9,000. That raises my income deductions to $16,000+, making my taxable income $0. You see what happens when you don't FAKE your arguments?

Snooze.

a) Yes, now all of a sudden they've got 3 kids on one income. Great. Hope you noticed that we can play this game as high as you want, but the fact remains that somebody in the bottom 50% is paying taxes.

b) Are you really so obtuse that you missed my point?

It is possible to reduce the tax load of a low-income taxpayer at a rate proportionally higher than you reduce the tax load of a high-income taxpayer. The simplest way to achieve this is to raise the personal exemption. The simplest way to reduce the tax load of a high-income taxpayer at a rate proportionally higher than that of a low-income taxpayer is to drop percentages off the top income tax bracket or to increase the level at which that tax bracket kicks in.


To repeat:

quote: Obfuscation, obfuscation obfuscation. Anybody with the math skills of an 11 year-old and the patience to think about it for 30 seconds can tell you that raising the personal exemption has a larger proportional impact on the tax burden of a lower-income family than that of a higher-income family, while chopping off the top brackets has a larger proportional impact on the tax burden of a higher-income family than on the lower-income family...

	23-01-2003 23:55									#40
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And that is necessarily goddamn so, John.

Necessarily, as long as everything else remains equal (i.e. as long as spousal and child deductions don't change). Would you like me to give you a proof of that?

	24-01-2003 00:06									#41
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Frogger Snooze. a) Yes, now all of a sudden they've got 3 kids on one income. Great. Hope you noticed that we can play this game as high as you want, but the fact remains that somebody in the bottom 50% is paying taxes. b) Are you really so obtuse that you missed my point?

Frogger, you created an example, worked some maths based upon non-existent tax law, to prove your point about US Federal Income Taxes. Obviously the fact that your assumptions and your math have nothing to do with reality in this country (you know, the country the cartoon was about) means nothing to you.

No, there are not 3 kids. 1 kid. My wife and I count as the other 2. As anybody who can read the thread will note, I was taking your income figures, an actual real-world family (mine) and applying US Tax Law to test your hypothesis. You failed. Deal with it.

	24-01-2003 00:21									#42
	Remove this text

What's wrong with tax cuts for the wealthy? They're getting ****ed much more than I am, in terms of the unfair system of tax brackets, just as I'm getting ****ed much more than people who make less money than I do.

	24-01-2003 01:29									#43
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What 50% doesn't pay taxes? I've made less than the average the last two years and I still paid taxes (then again, I don't have a wife and kiddies, I really need to get Bunnygrrl to marry me). Therefore it is likely that most people pay taxes.

	24-01-2003 01:40									#44
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Dammit people, do NONE of y'all check links???

The IRS does, Che! And, to repeat myself for the second.. third... fourth? time, it is US Federal Income Taxes we're talking about, not "taxes" in general.

	24-01-2003 01:47									#45
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Might I remind you that you posted the link after you posted the statement.

	24-01-2003 01:57									#46
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BTW, I paid $1699 in FICA last year.

So, the bottom 50% of us pay only about 3% in Federal taxes. That doesn't say what percentage of our income went to Federal taxes, just that it doesn't add up to very much.

You still made an incorrect statement saying that the bottom 50% doesn't pay any FICA when in fact we do.

	24-01-2003 07:44									#47
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Why the heck does all this matter? The rich are suppose to pay more taxes, or maybe JohnT and GP don't agree, but I really see no point to all this discussion. It seems like some people are arguing about how much tax low-income people pay. We should be arguing that we shouldn't have to pay taxes at all, because we are struggling to make it and they aren't. GP and JohnT are glad to get you liberals into this one the way I see it.

edit: sorry GP, I should have said Ned not you. I think you are the one who couldn't read the comic.

Last edited by DuncanK on 24-01-2003 at 07:56

	24-01-2003 07:57									#48
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People from all income levels pay 15% in payroll taxes(Social Security + Medicare).

People earning below $15,000(the poverty line for a 4 member family) may not pay any income tax. The total deduction is this case would be $7350(married filing jointly) + $12000(4*exemptions) = $19350.

For married people filing jointly, the tax progression works this way:
<$45,000: 15%
<$90,000: 28%
<$125,000: 31%
<$150,000: 36%
>$150,000: 39%

People earning above $150,000, but less than $300,000, are usually the best doctors, scientists, engineers, lawyers, university professor, and other important professionals in our country. These people are undoubtedly the most hard working class in our society, and they got to pay the highest percentage of their income in taxes. How is that fair?

	24-01-2003 07:57									#49
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The rich depend on the government to defend their assets more than the poor do. It only makes sense for the rich to contribute more to the government for that reason.

I'm in the top 20 percentile of income earners. And I say that I should be taxed more. There are things that need to be done to make this world a better place for me to live in and I'm willing to pay more for that.

Put *that* in your pipe and smoke it!

	24-01-2003 08:01									#50
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Lets look at the facts.

1. Bush is trying to stimulate the economy
2. He's giving tax cuts to the rich, which won't stimulate the economy
3. To stimluate the economy, you give money to people who will actually spend it on consumer goods aka the poorest 50%. The rich will just invest it into the stock market. Big deal. Money goes in, it comes out, and they still dont make more jobs.

TAX THE RICH BABY!!

	24-01-2003 08:20									#51
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So, is Tom Tommorow saying that people in "the flyover" don't support Republican tax cuts? Why do they vote consistently Republican then? Maybe the liberal elite are the ones really trying to speak for ordinary folk...

	24-01-2003 08:29									#52
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Maybe they vote republican because they are racist/anti gay/ anti immigration/ pro life/ pro large military/ and catholic/protestant.

In a country with only two major political parties its damned if you do, damned if you dont.

	24-01-2003 08:34									#53
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Of course, Lawrence. All of the ignorant yokels in the sticks must vote Republican because they're a) racist or b) christian (which is nearly the same as being racist). If only they would see the light and let the Democrats lead them to the promised land...

	24-01-2003 08:45									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Of course, Lawrence. All of the ignorant yokels in the sticks must vote Republican because they're a) racist or b) christian (which is nearly the same as being racist). If only they would see the light and let the Democrats lead them to the promised land...

Why do you think they vote Repulican, if they do that is?

edit: oh yes, the Republican tax cuts. And why should they vote Republican because of the tax cuts?

	24-01-2003 08:48									#55
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They vote Republican for a variety of reasons, of which economic policy is one piece. It's not like there are a bunch of people out here who despise Republican economic policy but still vote for them to keep down the darkies...

	24-01-2003 08:50									#56
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The people in the midwest who vote for his tax cut are just plain dumb. Because they will recieve the least amount of it.

	24-01-2003 08:51									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten They vote Republican for a variety of reasons, of which economic policy is one piece. It's not like there are a bunch of people out here who despise Republican economic policy but still vote for them to keep down the darkies...

It's the Republican policy that keeps down minorities

	24-01-2003 08:52									#58
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear I'm in the top 20 percentile of income earners. And I say that I should be taxed more.

I think that the IRS should start taking non-deductible donations from people like you.

	24-01-2003 08:54									#59
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quote: The people in the midwest who vote for his tax cut are just plain dumb. Because they will recieve the least amount of it.

They're not dumb. They're the ones who actually understand how the US tax system works.

	24-01-2003 08:56									#60
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Drake,

Poor whites have historically voted conservatively in this country because they have been racist, Christian, and xenophobic. Even if they can't be on top they feel some comfort in the fact that white males are on top. And also that conservatives will help them get jobs at the expense of minorities.