28-01-2003 02:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither OMG. I hope this is not definitive, and that this decision can be revisited. Carthage? Commercial? MP? You must be joking. Greece? Bwaa ha ha.

Has someone's head become a bit too inflated?

I'm curious to see how many of the die-hard conquest nuts we have on this team. We are going to have some SERIOUS in-fighting and debate on this team if attitudes like this continue. I strongly disagree that a narrowly focused conquest approach is going to win this game or any game. Multiplayer games involve so much more than just following through with a rush strat and moving onto your next helpless victim.

--Togas

	28-01-2003 02:10									#32
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I traditionally shun civs with the Exansionist trait as the only thing it gives you is the ability to build scouts and a bonus for searching goody huts. After that or if you are on island it is a dead trait whereas the others provide an ability throughout the game.

The nice thing about the Industrious/Commercial combo is that in addition to faster Workers and more cities before rampant corruption you get an extra shield and an extra commerce in all of your large cities as a sort of bonus.

	28-01-2003 02:17									#33
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The F 15 main use is that there's no need to build both Bombers and Fighters with the discovery of Flight; just build Fighters instead and upgrade them all to F 15s for planes that do both jobs.

Still, it's quite possible that the game may be over before then.

	28-01-2003 02:53									#34
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hi ,

so , when is the new poll going up , ........

have a nice day

	28-01-2003 09:05									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Has someone's head become a bit too inflated?

I posted with comments on the 2 civs leading the poll at that time. Sorry if I do not agree with you, but I feel those two would be very unwise choices for MP. One of them is down right ridiculous. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I was trying to lend weight to the thought that starting a poll before anything was discussed had the cart before the horse.

And yeah, I've seen the various traits in the hands of humans quite a bit. I think I have some valid views on the various traits.

Anyways, it seems as if things will be reviewed. Thus no need for further acrimony. I look forward to discussions.

	28-01-2003 09:07									#36
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I traditionally shun civs with the Exansionist trait as the only thing it gives you is the ability to build scouts and a bonus for searching goody huts. After that or if you are on island it is a dead trait whereas the others provide an ability throughout the game.

Expnationist often... nevermind. I will wait for a private forum.

	28-01-2003 17:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , so , when is the new poll going up , ........ have a nice day

Yes - well - with RL work and PTW-demo time consumption - I have not PM'd Markos - I will this evening.

And I promise to put all the civs on the poll this time.

	28-01-2003 17:58									#38
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Yes - well - with RL work and PTW-demo time consumption - I have not PM'd Markos - I will this evening. And I promise to put all the civs on the poll this time.

hi ,

"excelllent"

, so this is definatly going to be a PTW game hé

some people are confused as to why some talk about 24 civ's , ....

or is that undecided yet

have a nice day

	28-01-2003 20:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Expnationist often... nevermind. I will wait for a private forum.

Dammit, I want a private forum now so that I can hear what nye is winking about.

	28-01-2003 22:44									#40
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Expnationist often... nevermind. I will wait for a private forum.

NYE,

You see.... Togas is playing an expansionist civ stuck on a small jungle island in our internal pbem game... so he now has much better reason to be highly annoyed at the expansionist trait

	29-01-2003 00:21									#41
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I am voting for ottomans... why?

Well the my two favorate traits are religous and industrial. Since Egypt would be my first choice, The ottomans are scientific/industrial (like the persians) but their UU replaces calvary. This could put us in a fine position for a great GA.
Mss

	29-01-2003 01:38									#42
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Too many good choices....too bad we can only pick one of them.

	29-01-2003 02:04									#43
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In RL your culture or Civ as it were is set by the parental lottery. And so it should be in this game. You pick your slot, and all Civs are random. Developing strategies for unusual situations is what Civ is all about.

If we get a Civ with poor characteristics for the actual terrain, so be it. This will just make our victory even sweeter.

	29-01-2003 02:30									#44
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Hmmm....I'm sure we're all collectively talented enough to take on anyone with any civ. We could even choose it using a randomizer, if there was support for it.

Think of the bragging rights we'd have if we chose a random civ, got a relatively crappy one (although each has it's own advantages, but lets say the Zulu for example were picked), and yet we still were able to defeat our enemies!

Not to say that the other CivCommunities are not as talented as us, but this game will be a real test of how well everyone works as a team, and the overall strategies involved....

I'd like to see Theseus, nbarclay, the two Belgians (DeepO and Alva) from the GS on our team, they are VERY talented players, a huge force to be reckoned with.

Just wondering, has the call for recruitement gone to the other forums as well? Like the strategy forum and etc? I'm sure there's a good amount of players ready to go from the non-Democracy forum, who might like to take a stab at a Democracy game.....

	29-01-2003 03:13									#45
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Industrious, commercial and military traits. Any civ with these will get my vote.

I will not object to any civ with one of the above and either science or religious, but will feel as if we are not doing our best. The relivent UU would probably be my deciding factor.

Expansionistic will never see my vote unless we are guaranteed a pangia world.

	29-01-2003 03:41									#46
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Size of the map matters for some traights:

The smaller the map for the # of players, the better Military becomes.

The larger the map for the # of players, the better Comerical becomes.

The more space there is between civs on the same landmass, the better Expanionism becomes.

Industrious is great in any situation.

Religious is much better for SP than multi-player.

Scientific is ok in any case.

	29-01-2003 04:24									#47
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I just joined the team..I dont know how much I will be around due to reg. MP demogames, but I will help when I can. Regarding what civ, I would prefer to withhold discussion until the private forum is ready, so we dont give away any strategy.

	29-01-2003 04:35									#48
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We need to think about war

The diplomacy in the PtW game is cutthroat and paraniod an intersite game is likely to be the same.

Here's my Ranking of traits in a war mongering world:


Worst:
Expansionist - scouts are worth slightly more than 2 warriors.

Commercial - a militaristic world wil not get to Alpha Centuri.

Religious - we may stay in Monarchy/Communism. Happiness improvents : I use sparingly, for temporary problems I use slider when no lux avaiable.

Militristic - more experienced units. GL=Wonders.Barracks make sense earlier This trait is useful early.

Scientific -saves 120 shields/city, builds culture fast , Monotheism is useful for trades, alliances.

Industious - Things get done early no waiting forever for roads to get commoditities flowing - This makes it useful for commerce. Roads get miltary there fast, Mines insure we have lots of units.

Last edited by realpolitic on 31-01-2003 at 00:34

	29-01-2003 04:44									#49
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Dammit I gotta join this game now to make my point valid.

America! Thre's nothing better for tailoring your GA to suit when you want. Expansionsistic and Industrious are legends together - REX and the worker speed to keep up with improvements. The lack of a UU doesn't hinder us, it means we can choose when our GA is, and if we were playing as, say, the Zulus, we would be even MORE screwed if we landed a non Pangaea map, as their UU would be all but useless and we would have lost our GA early on as well!

Second choice - Ottomans, for a great UU and decent traits.

	29-01-2003 04:56									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Just wondering, has the call for recruitement gone to the other forums as well? Like the strategy forum and etc? I'm sure there's a good amount of players ready to go from the non-Democracy forum, who might like to take a stab at a Democracy game.....

Markos posted an announcement on the main Civ3 page about a week ago. I also posted a second thread in the PTW-demo game. We have a large team so far. Rather than further mass advertsing, if you think there are players out there who should be on the team - I would recommend contacting them and letting them know about it - if in fact they have not heard about it.

Cheers! Beta.

	29-01-2003 08:58									#51
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Personally, I happen to agree with joncnunn's assessment of individual traits.

Beyond that...

Like notyoueither, I've had reason to have played a number of games of PTW now.

I suppose the difference is that NYE has probably played with a group of warmongers who all went after each other from the get-go and militaristic traits and strong UUs become the foundation for mere survival.

I have played LAN games with groups of friends... trust me, some games with friends can be extremely cuthroat (I play the game Diplomacy, too... we know how to play games cutthroat ), but there's been some common level of understanding about trying to maximize the chance of your own civ surviving rather than simply trying to maximize the chance of another civ dying.

and that, my friends, is why I think that inter-site games will be less high-stakes and frenetic than heavy warmonger games. Because survival itself will be perceived by each site as so incredibly powerful a motivator, it will (in effect) raise the perceived risks of going to war w/o assurance of the odds being on your side. Unlike with the AI, there's no guarantee that if you send your troops off to invade the guy next to you, the other 2-3 other guys in the area won't immediately take advantage of your vulnerability to stab you in the back!

Because of this dynamic, conservative play tends to be encouraged. Wars typically only take place when multiple players agree to gang-up on some unlucky guy who probably brought it on himself by pissing everyone else off...

In that type of environment, any set of traits is survivable and only the expansionist trait tends to be pretty minimal (because its effects die quickly and the game tends to be long).

Personally, I think that an inter-site democracy game will tend more toward this style of play than toward that of a furiously fast warmonger fest... I could be wrong, of course, but with so many people involved, the perceived risk of being defeated will make people more conservative.

	29-01-2003 12:16									#52
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You play Diplomacy Arnelos? That game is so awesome! Hard to find people to play with....

	29-01-2003 12:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic You play Diplomacy Arnelos? That game is so awesome! Hard to find people to play with....

If you want to know the level of dork I am, I actually played in a regional Diplomacy tournament a number of years back I made it past the first game... then was in first place in the second game as France just on the basis of being mostly underestimated because I was "just a high school kid" back then... then the guys in their 40s ganged up on me I suspect just so they wouldn't have the embarassment of losing a diplomacy tournament to a high school kid I think I came in 3rd or 4th or something like that. That was years ago, though... I occassionally play with friends, but it's d--- hard to get extactly 7 people together.

Generally, though, if I can get 5-8 people together, Advanced Civilization (the boardgame) is many times a better option.

I played in an Advanced Civilization tournament a different year... Crete is my favorite civ to play as. While I made it to the second round and did very well in both games (Crete is not easy to play, but it's AWESOME if you know what you're doing), but I was absolutely blown out of the water by this guy with the best Africa strategy I'd ever seen.... I've been trying to model this guy's strategy when playing Africa ever since

Another good game for a group of that size is Pax Britanica, though it can be a bit excessive on the paperwork (of course, this is what computer asist programs can be programmed to help with )

As for others favorites for a sizable group with time to burn...

A Mighty Fortress (only played this with a group once )
Russian Civil War (played this twice... nice game)
Kingmaker (a true classic - only played it once, though )

EDIT: A friend of mine in college got a game made by Avalon Hill (or whoever bought them ) that was supposed to be essentially the Middle Ages version of Advanced Civilization. I think it was called Rennaisance, but I'm not sure. It was actually a pretty cool game, but I've only played it once.

	29-01-2003 12:43									#54
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Hmmm... I played Diplomacy. I didn't like it. There was too much, um, diplomacy involved ; and you guys all know how good and subtle my diplomacy is (I lost, btw. Go figure)

	29-01-2003 13:36									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos EDIT: A friend of mine in college got a game made by Avalon Hill (or whoever bought them ) that was supposed to be essentially the Middle Ages version of Advanced Civilization. I think it was called Rennaisance, but I'm not sure. It was actually a pretty cool game, but I've only played it once.

Age of Rennaisance is the game you're thinking of. I prefer Advanced Civ. Bought "Sid Myers Civilization" and I still need to find some guys to play it with. My college buddies have long since moved on. Most of my old board games just collect dust.

Some other good board games: Settlers of Caetan, Axis and Allies, Kremlin (an AH classic and favorite of mine), and if you ever find a board game called "Junta", buy it immediately. Very rare, very hysterical game about playing a corrupt government official in a 3rd world country.

I also play Diplomacy. Had to start playing it via email because it was too harsh for my gaming buddies back in college. I think I went a bit too far one time when I "stabbed" my own girlfriend during a game.

--Togas

	29-01-2003 13:45									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I think I went a bit too far one time when I "stabbed" my own girlfriend during a game.

The Golden Rules of Diplomacy:

1. Do unto others as they would do unto you, just do it first.

2. Do unto others as they would do unto you, just do it better.

3. Never play Diplomacy with your significant other.

------------------

As you can see, you violated the third one. I'm surprised you hadn't heard these rules earlier and known better...

(seriously, these are well known "rules" among the community of people that play the game - I seriously don't kid that I've heard a number of people refer to the suggestion that you never play Diplomacy with a romantic interest as a "rule" of the game )

	29-01-2003 14:13									#57
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HAHA I'm glad I sparked something here. I haven't played Diplomacy in oh,...about 8 years. And I played it maybe 10 times in a two-week period. My friend, who owned the game, moved away and I haven't played it since, nor do I have any buddies who are interested in strategy games....it's really sad. They like RISK. That's it. And Risk, is just plain stupid, IMHO.

Anyways....I just found the Stories & Diplomacy section here at Apolyton; I had no idea that people stilled played that game! I hope to get a game going if I can remember or re-learn how to play....any of ya'll interested maybe? And I mean the original one, WWI European map....that was awesome....ah the memories....

	29-01-2003 14:24									#58
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Do you actually need a copy of the game to play?

	29-01-2003 21:07									#59
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Well, tactics on the clasical board map of Risk with fixed exchange sets just boil down to:

1. If using manual selection of territory, get as many pieces of territory in Australia and South Eastern Asia as possible.

2. Place all starting armies in or near Australia.

3. First turn: Take complete control of the Australian contienant.

4. Always succesfuly attack at least 1 country each turn even if you move all the forces except 1 army back next turn.

5. Next conquer Indoensisa and control Australia from there. Build up to 10 armies there.

6. Take India. Keep most armies in Indoesnia though until you can support 10 in each of these territories.

7. Take China. Move all armies to China & India. Build up to 12 in each of those territory.

8. Be ready to make raids into Europe & Africa to prevent a monopoly.

9. Take the Middle East. Build up to 15 in China, India, and Middle East.

10. Be ready to make raids into South America as well to prevent a monopoly.

11. Take the Ural: moving the army from India into there. Build to 20 armies there.

12. Take the Ukraine, spliting the Ural force in half. Build to 20 armies on each border territory.

13. Advance the Ukraine force east, maintaiginin the defenses.

14. When you get control of all but 4 Asian territory and can conquer it all, keeping 20 armies left, do so.

15. Alaska is the next target.

16. Lauch a raid to completely take out the weakest player while mainitaing defenses next. Repeat until there is only 2 other players left in the game.

17. Now lauch an all out attack on the rest of the world. Use invasion paths; even if the attack fails and falls short, and they exchange cards and take several countries back, your follow up attack next turn with the reinforcements will finish the job.

More modern maps of Risk that add more connections from Australia to the Americans make a much better game.

	29-01-2003 22:02									#60
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Do you actually need a copy of the game to play?

Not anymore. If you're interested I could send you a few URLs with java map programs. All you really need to play the game is an understanding of the rules, someone to act as a "moderator" (if you play via email), and some sort of maping interface.

however I would recommend buying a copy of the game to give the Hasbro/AH guys a little deserving profit and because it's much more fun pushing the pieces around on a giant map of Europe than just checking it out on a computer screen.

But this is way off topic. Send me a PM is you want to discusss further.

--Togas