29-01-2003 22:07									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic They like RISK. That's it. And Risk, is just plain stupid, IMHO.

They need to be introduced to Axis & Allies.......

	29-01-2003 22:22									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Togas But this is way off topic. Send me a PM is you want to discusss further.

This may as well be thread jacked - further discussion on topic should wait until we have a closed forum.

	30-01-2003 00:50									#63
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I agree GenghisFarb, Axis & Allies is a cool game, I've been trying to get them to do it, but they'd rather go get stoned and sit around. I can't do that anymore, I'm not about to lose my job.

Bah, I need more history buff's and strategy buff's to hang out with.

And yes I threadjacked this on purpose, for that very reason Dejon.

	30-01-2003 01:46									#64
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal We need to aply what we have learned from the Team game in this choice. Expansionist- Incredible trait in MP games. You start with a free scout (move two) and begin the exploring and goodie hut popping quickly and it leads to an early lead (espeshily if you pop a close by settler). This one trait could land upwards of three or four techs on a standard size map giving an early lead (one that a team like us wouldn't relinquish... )

In the PtW game we still have technology trades, and besides, the more cities we conquer the more people there are more citizens to develop science. The Science trait saves us 40 shields every time we build a library that's 1 1/3 swordsmen, and we'll get the science & cultural benefits 40 shields sooner. I've had to end early wars because I was lagging in culture, at least with the science trait, I'm well prepared when the 20 turns expire. 160 shields per University grinds my wars to a halt, by the time I recover, I have to start thinking about factories.

"early lead" - what do you mean here??? all you need are horsemen or swordsmen to start a war, it only takes a few techs. My first one is usually with archers, after several experiences of playing the Persians with Iron out of reach, I've made it quite lucrative. Ancient wars don't reqire much tech.

	30-01-2003 01:53									#65
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Well, tactics on the clasical board map of Risk with fixed exchange sets just boil down to: 1. If using manual selection of territory, get as many pieces of territory in Australia and South Eastern Asia as possible. 2. Place all starting armies in or near Australia. 3. First turn: Take complete control of the Australian contienant.

No, the best tactic in Risk is to find opponents who all believe they have to have Australia and let them beat the crap out of each other, while you take the rest of the world.

	30-01-2003 01:54									#66
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal We need to aply what we have learned from the Team game in this choice. Expansionist- Incredible trait in MP games. You start with a free scout (move two) and begin the exploring and goodie hut popping quickly and it leads to an early lead (espeshily if you pop a close by settler). This one trait could land upwards of three or four techs on a standard size map giving an early lead (one that a team like us wouldn't relinquish... )

In the PtW game we still have technology trades, and besides, the more cities we conquer the more people there are more citizens to develop science. The Science trait saves us 40 shields every time we build a library that's 1 1/3 swordsmen, and we'll get the science & cultural benefits 40 shields sooner. I've had to end early wars because I was lagging in culture, at least with the science trait, I'm well prepared when the 20 turns expire. 160 shields per University grinds my wars to a halt, by the time I recover, I have to start thinking about factories.

"early lead" - what do you mean here??? all you need are horsemen or swordsmen to start a war, it only takes a few techs. My first one is usually with archers, after several experiences of playing the Persians with Iron out of reach, I've made it quite lucrative. Ancient wars don't reqire much tech.

	30-01-2003 02:31									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic I agree GenghisFarb, Axis & Allies is a cool game, I've been trying to get them to do it, but they'd rather go get stoned and sit around. I can't do that anymore, I'm not about to lose my job. Bah, I need more history buff's and strategy buff's to hang out with. And yes I threadjacked this on purpose, for that very reason Dejon.

Sorry to hear that all you can get people to play is Risk

I agree that Risk gets extremely dull extremely quickly... it's nothing but rolling dice until the end of time (sometimes it seems almost literally...) - very little strategy.

As for Axis & Allies, I have a copy of it right behind my head on the shelf here That said, while it lasts longer than Risk for keeping my interest, it gets dull quick as well. It doesn't take terribly long until the basic strategies have all been tried out (after about 4 games) and after that it's just a giant game of rock-paper-scissors with dice so occassionally scissors will beat rock by some stroke of pure luck.

Another game that's somewhat like that is an old one I have called "Conquest of the Empire" also by MB. That game plays more like a complicated version of Roman Risk.

I prefer games with a bit more depth and more concentration on power politics and diplomacy, though

	30-01-2003 03:05									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Another game that's somewhat like that is an old one I have called "Conquest of the Empire" also by MB. That game plays more like a complicated version of Roman Risk.

Ah, yes, the old Milton Bradly "Game Master Series!" I still have Shogun (later renamed Samauri Swords), and Fortress America. My buddy had Conquest and Broadsides & Boarding Parties, a very clever 1 on 1 pirate ship game with huge model ships that came apart as you blew away masts and the hull.

--Togas

	30-01-2003 03:25									#69
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SAMURAI SWORDS!!!!!!!

THAT GAME IS AWESOME!!!!

I played it once with the same group of friends I used to play Diplomacy and Axis & Allies with, and I remember coming away with feeling that Samurai Swords was probably the coolest board game of all time!



Man you guys bring back some memories for me! A little extra excitement....

	30-01-2003 04:15									#70
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Axis & Allies tactics:

As Japan: DON'T attack the US first; attack China & Russia instead. Build a Factory in the (3) prod square in the northern part of China to build local Tanks & Inf there. Have Japan concentrate on building the Aircraft to attack Russia and naval ships to defend against America there.

Russia: Have a reserve force of 5 Tanks that can take a piece of the motherland back from the Japs and retreat leaving Infentry as garrision. Other than that, build lots of Infentry to defend against Germany. Pray that you have good British & American allies.

Germany: Have a Tank or two go conquer Africa virtually for free if the British don't defend it. Focus on Russia: Be sure to only attack when you can win and hold the new territory. Lots of Tanks, Infentry, Bombers, and Fighters will be needed. Try to work with the Japanese to knock Russia out. Also watch out if the UK starts building transports.

UK: #1 priority: Don't let the Russians get knocked out. #2 priority: Don't let the Germans get Africa for free. #3 priority: Build some forces for an ampehous invasion.

US: Pay attention to what the Germans & Japense are doing to determine your focus.

	30-01-2003 04:21									#71
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I played Conquest of the Empire once: Not enough to form tactics.

I've also played the board game where the US is under attack from 3 sides.

In that game: Western invader should focus on Tanks
Eastern invader should focus on Infentry
Souther invader should mix them up.

Invaders should also try to bypass American cities where possible and only attack if assured of holding onto the city the next turn. (Sorry, there is no razing of cities in this game.)

As America:
2 Infs placed in all coastal cities. 2 Tanks placed in second tier cities, especally the NE in positions that they can take back a coastal town. Planes placed further back.

If you have a 40% or better chance of taking back an American town, try it even if you can't hold it. (You get to draw an extra goodie card every time you take back a town.)

	30-01-2003 04:49									#72
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I love how this thread has turned from picking a civ to suddenly discussing Risk and Axis & Allies strategy!

....somehow I feel it's all my fault....

(however, it's probably best since we need to keep our forums a little cryptic until we have a private forum for our strategies...)

	30-01-2003 04:52									#73
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I liked playing as the Soviet Union or Germany in Axis & Allies....my strategy for survial as the Soviet Union is:

1st Turn - Buy as many Infantry as possible (they defend at a roll of 2)
2nd Turn - Buy as many infantry as possible (and a few armor)
repeat
repeat
repeat
eventually invade Eastern Europe, and slowly move. Keep LOTS of Infantry, your odds increase so much more when you can roll like 30-40 dice.....you just wipe out an entire German army that way....

Hell, I like playing as all of them. I gotta play that game now....

	30-01-2003 05:09									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Ah, yes, the old Milton Bradly "Game Master Series!" I still have Shogun (later renamed Samauri Swords), and Fortress America. My buddy had Conquest and Broadsides & Boarding Parties, a very clever 1 on 1 pirate ship game with huge model ships that came apart as you blew away masts and the hull. --Togas

Oh yeah, The infamous Game Master Series.

I have 6 copies of Axis & Allies, 1 Fortress America, and one of Conquest of the Empire.

They took Shogun off the market before I could get a copy but I was able to play with my friend's copy.

A&A and Shogun were by far the best two. Fortress was doomed simply because there was not enough elements added to make it as enjoyable as the others and who was the idiot who playtested Conquest?

Conquest was a great idea and had great pieces but it basically boiled down to a defective version of Risk when you played it by the rules. The best element was the inflation concept, but it would appear as if that took 80% of the game concept budget for the game.

Oh, and I'm all for the Ottomans as our Inter-game civ.

(See, Ming, the last sentence was on-topic. )

	30-01-2003 06:16									#75
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I've died and gone to heaven. Diplomacy! Wargames! There are others of you out there - but you see, I have a few years on you. I cut my teeth with the early Avolon Hill games (1914 being a personal fave - one of James Dunnigan's first - he being the Sid Meier of board wargames back in the 70"s and early 80's. That or Anzio. Or Stalingrad for something light.) and then on to the Strategy and Tactics family of games. I have a basement loaded with them - I suspect they are worth something now.

But Diplomacy - yes - would love to play. And who cares if this thread got hijacked.

	30-01-2003 06:19									#76
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Oh - and BTW - I have PM'd Markos about a closed forum - citing:

i) the need to discuss a civ choice and related strategy

ii) the upcoming start of the game. No definite time yet.

Will keep you all informed.

Cheers! Beta.

	30-01-2003 09:19									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic I liked playing as the Soviet Union or Germany in Axis & Allies....my strategy for survial as the Soviet Union is: 1st Turn - Buy as many Infantry as possible (they defend at a roll of 2) 2nd Turn - Buy as many infantry as possible (and a few armor) repeat repeat repeat eventually invade Eastern Europe, and slowly move. Keep LOTS of Infantry, your odds increase so much more when you can roll like 30-40 dice.....you just wipe out an entire German army that way.... Hell, I like playing as all of them. I gotta play that game now....

This was my problem with Axis & Allies... many of the strategies were obvious and even when no single obvious option existed, the potentially successful ones weren't very numerous... Axis & Allies is a glorified version of rock-paper-scissors with dice...

That said, it can be fun.

My favorite to play is Britain, personally. Britain has more odd-ball options (like the industry in India, for instance) than other players - except when Germany excercies the option to concentrate on Britain... then you just hold out and wait for the Red Army to overrun Hitler

But seriously, there are very few potential ways that game typically turns out. The main reason for it is that there are only 2 sides to the conflict.... the only thing that makes the game interesting is when you get complete idiots to play at least 1-2 of the play positions... then the game is fun again because those guys have no clue what to do and if both sides have one, it really can make the game interesting again

	30-01-2003 11:55									#78
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Where is Arabia?

	30-01-2003 12:15									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This was my problem with Axis & Allies... many of the strategies were obvious and even when no single obvious option existed, the potentially successful ones weren't very numerous... Axis & Allies is a glorified version of rock-paper-scissors with dice...

Well, it is very true that the strategies in A&A can be played out if you play with the same people over and over again, which is exactly what happened to my friends and I. To remedy that, and to show my total nerdiness, we completely overhauled the game. First, I made a giant sized board that merged the AA Europe map, the AA Pacific map, and then divided up N. America and Russia a good deal more. All in all, the board has 160 territories on it. Then, we invented a d12 system, so that units could be spread out more along the spectrum. And, of course, we added a tech system to compliment that, with small unit improvements. Then, with all that in place, we just decided to make it a free-for-all game, with everyone selecting their own starting territories and forces, with no alliances pre-set either. So, top that off with some Diplomacy-style meetings between turns, and you have one strategy-filled afternoon of gaming. An average game takes us about 9 hours, so needless to say we only get to play about once every two months.

With that said, nerd-rant over

	30-01-2003 13:13									#80
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Where is Arabia?

PUB QUIZ!!

A: It is a peninsula in the Middle East, nowadays divided by countries such as Saudi Arabia, Oman and Yemen. The Arabs were a scientific people whose height of power was during the Middle Ages...







Oh... you mean in the poll.

	30-01-2003 18:36									#81
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BFM Great post.

And to PlagueRat - yup - in the definitive poll when the closed forum is set up, all civs will be included. Panag had previously brought this to my attention.

	30-01-2003 18:46									#82
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound BFM Great post. And to PlagueRat - yup - in the definitive poll when the closed forum is set up, all civs will be included. Panag had previously brought this to my attention.

hi ,

how long will it take for that "closed" forum , .....

cant we go ahead without it

have a nice day

	30-01-2003 21:54									#83
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Not sure regarding time on the closed forum. It is out of my hands. But give it a few days - I only asked the day before yesterday.

And I would be reluctant to go ahead with further debate or polling given the concerns many in this thread have expressed regarding discussing in a public forum the choice of civ, and therefore related strategy/game style.

	30-01-2003 22:53									#84
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I think that all teams should agree on the size of the map and layout before we decide what civ to play.

	31-01-2003 00:10									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This was my problem with Axis & Allies... many of the strategies were obvious and even when no single obvious option existed, the potentially successful ones weren't very numerous... Axis & Allies is a glorified version of rock-paper-scissors with dice...

Well, we long ago gave up replaying the Axis vs the Allies and simply played it anything goes with each nation free to determine who it wanted to make alliances with and not.

The easiest team to win with was Russia and Germany of course. Then we started making our own maps so that we could have more than 5 players reaching its peak at 26 different countries. Those games lasted just under 72 hours apiece with the players rotating to lunch/dinner when it wasn't it their turn and taking naps, etc.

	31-01-2003 00:48									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I have played LAN games with groups of friends... trust me, some games with friends can be extremely cuthroat

I've played with some tournement winners in Silicon Valley. Their usual style of play was to gang up on #1 until someone else was in the lead. I'm not sure what traits this benefits, although getting an early lead in tech could make you be percieved as a threat.

	31-01-2003 01:51									#87
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Hey, I voted for the majority(for a change) option Carthage.

You know those nasty 2,3,1 Numibian mercs they have....
They kick a lot of shít in the ancient age!
Once I played a poor MP-save someone got. I had another fellow as a huge neighbour. Carthage was small with no extension possibilities, and war was my desperate option.

- After a considerably costly mil.buildup, I used two stacks of total 16 Swordsmen+23 Numibians. Went pillage/fortify into his lands for two turns and he couldn't destroy them, then I sieged two of his cities.

He had been warned of a war, and instructed to give me techs for peace, but he was too stubborn. He probably thought the Numibians was not so dangerous. Then he got an iron source and the odds were shifting as he gained feudalism. Things got more challenging when my mercs was approached by some few med.infantry. Then the fúckíng game crashed.

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 31-01-2003 at 01:56

	31-01-2003 08:53									#88
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I think that all teams should agree on the size of the map and layout before we decide what civ to play.

Agreed!!! The schedule is to have parameters determined by next week (3rd), give a week for civ choice discussions (10th), game to start a week or so after that. Will keep you posted.

By the way - Borc's German team are in.

	31-01-2003 13:36									#89
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX ell, it is very true that the strategies in A&A can be played out if you play with the same people over and over again, which is exactly what happened to my friends and I. To remedy that, and to show my total nerdiness, we completely overhauled the game. First, I made a giant sized board that merged the AA Europe map, the AA Pacific map, and then divided up N. America and Russia a good deal more. All in all, the board has 160 territories on it. Then, we invented a d12 system, so that units could be spread out more along the spectrum. And, of course, we added a tech system to compliment that, with small unit improvements. Then, with all that in place, we just decided to make it a free-for-all game, with everyone selecting their own starting territories and forces, with no alliances pre-set either. So, top that off with some Diplomacy-style meetings between turns, and you have one strategy-filled afternoon of gaming. An average game takes us about 9 hours, so needless to say we only get to play about once every two months. With that said, nerd-rant over

You want nerd? My friends and I would add little cards similar to monopoly cards. One of the cards was a nuclear strike that had the chance of producing gargantuans (like King Kong or Godzilla). These things would rampage all over the place until they were placaded. If you managed that, they were yours to command. It was the only game I knew of where you wanted to get nuked!

	31-01-2003 15:22									#90
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal You want nerd? My friends and I would add little cards similar to monopoly cards. One of the cards was a nuclear strike that had the chance of producing gargantuans (like King Kong or Godzilla). These things would rampage all over the place until they were placaded. If you managed that, they were yours to command. It was the only game I knew of where you wanted to get nuked!

Awesome. Man, we are all a bunch of nerds, aren't we?

But then again, it's the nerds who triumph in the end.