28-01-2003 22:36									#1
	Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This thread is to post your reports from PMs, chats, and other official business. This thread is also for instructions for our ambassadors.

DO NOT POST ANALYSIS AND COMMENTARY HERE


CURRENT STATUS OF OUR DIPLOMACY WITH EACH NATION

Gathering Storm/Egypt: ( DeepO ) -- Ninot

Neu Demoglyptia/Arabia: ( Picahulu ) -- MrWhereItsAt
Non-Agression Pact until 1000bc


Glory of War/China: (Panzer32) -- adaMada
We agree not to trade contact with Legoland or Philosophy
We won't sell MM until turn 80
We give our WM to GoW if we get Vox or GS's WM
GoW agress to give their WM to us if they get Lego, Vox, or GS's WM.
We won't sell Poly until turn 81.
GoW will give us a bonus of 10g should they sell Poly for 50g or more.

Vox Controli/Persia: ( Dissident ) -- Nuclear Winter
50 turn Non-Agg pact until turn 120

Lux Invicta/Ottomans: DECEASED

Legoland/Carthage: ( Nimitz ) -- Thud
Agreement to share reasearch
They give us Most Favored Nation status
They will not declare war until 1000AD
We will not reveal they gave us Monarchy
We give them 50g on turn 102.
They give us Monarchy on turn 81.

Last edited by Togas on 23-03-2003 at 10:57

	28-01-2003 22:49									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

History Guy -- Set up a chat with ND. Tell ND that we have Mysticism and will soon have writing (within 4 turns or so). Find out what they will offer us for either or both of these techs. Begin making a deal.

Find out how things are with Lux, if they have a "three way tech alliance" with GoW (send them a copy of that PM from Panzer that adaMada posted), if they are having more trouble with Lux or if Lux left. Ask them how they're getting along with GoW.

Chat settlement issues with them, but once we get those two cities established (2 & 3) we no longer need a settlement agreement ... we may push for more land to the north east.

jdjdjd -- Verify with Lux that they're not supposed to trade us Horseback Riding for Writing if GoW is trading with us. Tell them that GoW has made an offer now for HBR to us and we want to know if they'd be breaking their treaty with GoW if they traded it to us.

Try to see what deal you can get for Mysticism. Chat about it a bit, see what they'll offer. See what you can come up with.

Godking See if GS is researching Writing and if so, how soon they'll have it. Tell them that we believe that Vox may have a contact with a team on our continent and if we trade Writing it may get to Vox before GS can trade it. Find out if they want to agree that we will both release Writing to the world at the same time.

adaMada -- Good work on the GoW negotiations. We may end up taking their deal after all and get HRB + gold + them leaving.

--Togas

	28-01-2003 23:05									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

adaMada -- Please post here the offers from GoW for leaving and HBR for Writing.

--Togas

	28-01-2003 23:15									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

History Guy -- Ask ND whether or not they traded any partial map information with GoW. Tell them frankly that we are concerned about GoW claiming they got information from ND that ND could only partially have, as the rest could not possibly have been obtained from ND's scout. Tell them frankly that we are concerned about GoW having cheated. (quoted from Arnelos because I'm too lazy to retype it myself )

--Togas

	29-01-2003 03:59									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

adaMada -- Contact GoW and tell them that Togas is seriously considering their proposal but he would like to add an agreement, which can be mutual if they so choose:

Add a "no trade writing/riding for 20 turns" clause. The # of turns can be changed. Max 40, Min 10. We would promise not to trade Riding. They would promise not to trade Writing for the specified period.

--Togas

	29-01-2003 04:34									#6
	Remove this text

DeepO has taken over from Mesh for GS.

Will attempt to get the info. However, to do so I will most likely have to release when we expect to research it.

	29-01-2003 04:52									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by GodKing DeepO has taken over from Mesh for GS. Will attempt to get the info. However, to do so I will most likely have to release when we expect to research it.

Fixed.

Let them know that we will get it in 3 turns. If they will get it 6+ turns from now, let's not make a deal. If it's in the 6-10 range, we might be able to promise that we won't trade it with the nation that we think has contact with Vox.

--Togas

	30-01-2003 05:49									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This message was despatched to Gastronome Neecap, who took it by horse to Neu Theban:

My dear friend, Picahulu, Wise and Gracious Ambassador from the great Arabian Sultan Borc,

To continue my earlier letter of two days previous, in which I described the attack upon my person, I follow up with this.

As I spake to ye earlier, Milord Togas above all wishes to have a discussion with your Sultan, the great and noble Borc, and is certain that he also wishes to speak with Milord. There is much now to speak of, especially on our border policy. I have sent previously the address to which we would ask the grace of your Sultan's presence. Please do respond on this, and act on it at once, for in this world we can only find those whom we can trust. As soon as possible, may we arrange a date for this most important meeting? This is what we find most urgent as of now.

Our glorious and wise philosophers and magi have made marvellous discoveries also. Mysticism has taught us many things, a great revealing of all great things above us, in the language we would understand. This was discovered under divine inspiration, and is thus very, very precious. Would you care to make an offer for it? We wish to spread the good word of the faith of Spain.

Also, our wise men are quickly advancing our knowledge of Writing. In, oh, say, four short turns this knowledge will be ours, and our culture will flourish anew, spreading over this region, and our barbarian enemies that hide in the woods will be awed by it's glory. This, also we wish to trade when we have it.

Finally, we wish to speak of international matters.

We wish to know firstly, do you have a three-way technology alliance with the Glory of War, as the Ambassador of the Chinese, Senor Panzer, suggests? We would be very interested in hearing more on this, if it is true. Also, we should like to enquire whether or not you did trade any partial map information with the Chinese in your foreign work. To be frank, we are concerned that the Chinese have information from you that only you could have given them, and this does bother us. Indeed, we find it somewhat distressing. Frankly, we worry that the Chinese have used methods that are simply not quite right to use. [ooc] We worry whether they have cheated or not. [/ooc] Please do comment on this as soon as humanly possible, for it is quite distressing, as I said.

Finally, we wish to ask of Lux Invicta, your neighbors who have, you tell us, violated your territory, and have thus provoked war. We trust that they have withdrawn. Please do tell us what has happened, for all of us, Togas King especially, are quite concerned about you, our best of friends.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador from Milord Togas, King of Iberia, Overlord of the Visigoths, Flattener of the Vandals

-

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador to Neu Demogyptica

	30-01-2003 06:49									#9
	Lux Invicta Inflate your Upload Space

Here is BFM's most recent PM:

quote: Hello jdjdjd, Friend of Lux! So - ND is complaining to you about one little warrior? Well - it is true that we saw a yellow line in the jungle, but we did not cross it to annoy them. It was merely the shortest route between A and B. Actually, we did not mind, since scouts of ND have roamed our lands since the beginning of time. But we don't complain. Hell, no. We have something better to do. Like trading. We have, indeed, an agreement with GoW not to trade HBR to you =unless they don't trade it to you=. Since this has been the case - the deal was cancelled, I presume - we talked to you about the trade. What worries me here is that GoW seems to know about this, though the messages I sent you were marked confidential. We need to talk about that - do you think there is a spy around? We sure did not tell them of our Alliance, or of the trade. GoW seems not to believe us. Therefore, I need you to confirm to them that we held off the Lux-RP trade until you cancelled the GoW-RP trade. Only when he receives such information from two sides (from you and from us), he will be convinced that he's seeing ghosts. Therefore I ask you - can you send GhengisFarb a PM, with a copy to me, confirming this info? Thank you in advance. We would like to stress that we look forward to trading with you in the future. We are nearing the completion of Mysticism, so we have no interest in that tech. However, we might be able to acquire the Mathematics tech soon, which we offer to you for trade. We have information that ND will acquire it, too, however, and we ask you to get it from us. ND is getting stronger, and we fear that trading with them will not put that to a halt. They have us boxed in, and we fear that war may be immiment. We have some troops standing by, though, so they'd better not attack anytime soon. But... if things start to heat up, can we count on your support? In the meantime, your despot Togas and my president Trip have had a meeting. Trip told me that Togas said you have some troubles with GoW in the scouting department. Is there any indication that their units might come our way? If so, please tell us. Your friend in the North, BFM

1. He confirms they entered ND territory but only to take shorter route. He state ND is boxing them in and has been in their territory. They fear a war may break out. - They remind us of the Alliance, signed on 1/18 - 2390BC its 2070 BC - thats 8 turns of a 20 turn trade.
2. He says they do have a no trade clause on HBR, unless GoW does not trade it. They can trade it if we choose to not trade with GoW. To me, that is not our concern. But he wants a statement from us to GF that we are not trading with GoW. Did we say no GoW? Can we still trade to Lux?
3. He mentions that GoW knows of the possible trade...did someone on our team tell GoW of private negotiations I have with Lux? I swear that pisses me off! I have posted my PMs and BFM's and in them they talk of confidentiality! I'll look like an a$$! I assume it was us based on all the discussion about the chat with GoW.
4.They do not want Mysticism, they claim they are researching it. I suppose they may still want Writing, though he does not mention it.
5. They think they will have Math soon, and are asking we trade it from them and not ND.

What are my instructions? I am sending him a brief I'll look into it note.

	30-01-2003 09:01									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd 3. He mentions that GoW knows of the possible trade...did someone on our team tell GoW of private negotiations I have with Lux? I swear that pisses me off! I have posted my PMs and BFM's and in them they talk of confidentiality! I'll look like an a$$! I assume it was us based on all the discussion about the chat with GoW.

FYI, it was my goof and I take full responsibility for it. I was using it as a bargaining tactic and I'd forgotten that we'd promised Lux not to mention even the POSSIBILITY of a trade with them to GoW.

Thankfully, I think it convinced GoW that Lux cannot be trusted (if we're going to make ourselves look like asses for my screwing up, we might as well have gotten something out of it ) and additinoally convinced GoW to give us a better deal.

adaMada did an EXCELLENT job of making the best of the situation and getting some very nice deals out of GoW.

As I said above, however, it's my fault for forgetting we'd promised not to tell GoW of the possibility of a trade with Lux for HB.

I'm not sure what we should say to Lux to make up for the fact that I goofed in the negotiations with GoW. Just tell them that one of our members accidentally slipped to GoW in a team chat and has been properly admonished... it will not happen again.

For my part, I realize this screwed things up for you, jdjdjd. I'm sorry about that... I think the registry of things we've promised each team that Togas has started as a seperate thread will help to prevent anyone else from making my stupid mistake.

I honestly think being honest about what happened might work here... it was human error, we're sorry, and we're instituting a system that should prevent it in the future.

Another thing I think we can do, btw... is that there should ideally only be ONE diplomat making communication with another team. It's fine for others to make suggestions, but I'm sure adaMada found it highly frustrating that I, Ninot, dejon, and half a dozen other people were all saying stuff to GhengisFarb and Panzer... some of it should have been said and much of it shouldn't have.

Sersiously, all team communication to other teams about PTW-related stuff should be conducted by a single individual at any given time and whatever that individual learns or shares should be reported here (much as with my chats with Nimitz). In the future, I'm going to respect adaMada's place as ambassador to GoW as I really should have done more that night.

That's enough on that issue...

quote: 5. They think they will have Math soon, and are asking we trade it from them and not ND.

We should trade with ND for it. We should trade Writing to Lux for contact with Vox and anything else we can get out of them.

	30-01-2003 20:30									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

DeepO - I will be out for the next couple of days if my schedule works like I suspect it will. So if you can please send any corispondance to both myself and Togas (who by cc of this message I am letting him know of my absence as well). I should be back on Monday if it works out. Thanks. Appologies for any inconvenience.

GK

quote: DeepO wrote on 30-01-2003 09:31: Thanks, Godking, for this message. It certainly is interesting to us, allow me to post it to our board, and reply you later with better-thought out things. I do know our research, of course, but I both don't know when exactly we will get writing, nor if we would be willing for such a deal (I can't see why not, although it would favor you more then it would favor us, as you have more contacts.) Let me get back to you this evening, in the mean time I wish you well. DeepO quote: Dear DeepO: We here on the RP team have a concern that is of interest to both of our teams. I suspect that Vox may have a contact with a team on our continent. We do not know this for a fact, but our intelligence has come to the conclusion that there is a high probability of this being so, if not through a land bridge, then through an area of land that is close enough to be visible from each side. We suspect that you are researching the new concept of Writing. We ourselves are researching this technology. We have already made arrangements to sell this technology, and fear that Vox may acquire it prior to your ability to sell it to them. We would be willing to delay our sale a couple of turns if you will agree to the following: “RP and GS will release the technology of Writing to the world at the same time, in the year_____”. By this we assume that you will have it researched within the next 4-6 turns. If this is not the case, we will of course to what is best for our nation. If it is slightly higher than the 4-6 turns, say 6 to 10 or so, we will see what we can do to not trade it to the nation in particular until the appropriate time, but no promises as I will have to clear this with our Lord Togas. In order for this to work, we need the following information from you: Are you researching Writing? If so, when will you have it? As a gesture of good faith, I will tell you that we are researching it and expect to have it within 3 turns. Please of course keep this information confidential within your team. As an additional note, we do appreciate your warning regarding the barbarian tribes encountered. We ourselves are encountering barbarians and have sent several war parties to deal with them. May you deal with the heathens you encounter most effectively. Peace between us; GodKing Diplomat to the Pharaoh of Gathering Storm Royal Chamber Pot Cleaner to our Lord Togas, Despot of the Tribes of Spain, Subjugator of the Heathen Visigoths, Purveyor of all that is Good and Holy, and maker of a fine beer called Togas Bru.

	30-01-2003 23:37									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

FIRST

adaMada -- Inform GoW that we have agreed to option #3, that it should begin THIS TURN. We will expect to receive HBR and in 3-4 turns (when we get writing) we will trade it for the specified amount of gold. BE SPECIFIC with the amount of gold we expect, and that the trade will be voidable if they continue to remain in our territory. Instruct them to move their western warrior (basher?) north, north, north, etc., until they have entered the jungle.

THEN

jdjdjd -- Thank Lux for their quick response. Write a PM to GoW's ambassador and CC it to Lux that states that "Lux Invicta held off the Horseback Riding for Writing trade with us until it was certain that our team and GoW were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfear with the RP-GoW trade and has only made themselves available to us as a back-up."

(that should satisfy Lux and still stir up the GoW enough to realize that Lux would have undercut them if they hadn't given in to us.)

Inquire with Lux about the possibility of aquiring contact with Vox ... what would it cost us?

Remind them of our hope for peace between them and ND. We will honor our alliance, however, we have no spare troops to send now and would not be useful if a war broke out soon. Stress to them the importanace of peace at this phase in our history.

--Togas

	31-01-2003 07:03									#13
	Remove this text

Here is me speaking out of the other side of my mouth to BFM:

quote: Hello My Friend: I have some dissapointing news, however, things may work out well in the end. 1. Unfortunately, the powers that be have decided to make the deal for HBR with GoW. This is against my advice. Nonetheless, it is to be. 2. I am going to tell GoW's ambassador, I will copy you on the PM, that you negotiated in good faith, and only after I advised you the deal fell through with GoW. Also, that you did nothing to "steal that deal". 3. I am in a position to make a trade to you for Contact with Vox. Would you be willing to trade that to us? and for what? We will stand behind the Alliance. We hope there is peace, because an early war can be damaging and we do not have the military units available to be able to help too much. Please let me know if you have further questions. Please let me know what trade is possible for Contact with Vox. Thank you in advance for being patient with your Southern friend, I remain, jdjdjd, Friend and Ambassador to Lux Invicta

Here is the PM to GoW:

quote: Hello Dear Panzer: I am jdjdjd of España (RP), Ambassador to the Ottoman's(LI). I am writing on behalf of the Ottoman's, to clear up a misconception that is out there and may hurt your opinion of LI. Lux Invicta never sought to trade us HBR for Writing until after I had approached BigFurryMonster about it. That was after I was told it was certain that our team and yours were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfere with the RP-GoW trade and only negotiated after we told them the trade was off. Please let us know should you have any questions. I remain, jdjdjd

To Arnelos:

You have warned in the past about "going native", yet it appears to me after one chat with GoW, that you have done just that. You were my friend yesterday, and you will be my friend tomorrow, but today I feel like kicking your a$$.

To All:

I remind you of all the lies Gow has told us, and now we kowtow to them. This makes us look weak. We pull the rug out from under a deal with Lux. This makes us look untrustworthy and wishywashy.

This is bad business.

This constant overanalysis and too many "hands in the pot" will destroy us, mark my words. We need to appear united and on the same page. We need to deal as if we are stromg and sure-handed. We need to stand up to those whe seek to bully us. Our word must appear good.

Finally, if someone else interferes with my negotiations, I will have no recourse but to resign my post. So there.

	31-01-2003 08:29									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd To Arnelos: You have warned in the past about "going native", yet it appears to me after one chat with GoW, that you have done just that. You were my friend yesterday, and you will be my friend tomorrow, but today I feel like kicking your a$$.

Jdjdjd,

For the record, I didn't go native. I certainly wasn't trying to help out GoW, I was trying to use the existence of Lux offering us HB to pressure GoW (because I don't like them in the slightest).

It was a snap decision I shouldn't have made and I'm honestly sorry to you for it. As I've argued as a consequence, ambassadors should have content control of things said to the civilization they are ambassador to - that's only fair for trying to keep the team having one voice to each other team.

As I've stated, I will consult with ambassadors and Togas in the future before doing stupid stuff like that. I have also suggested (in another thread), that such be enacted as a rule to prevent other people from making the same mistake (which others in fact did in the same chat).

I respect your position and I realized that I'd stepped over the line the moment I did it. I know good and well that we need to avoid stuff like this.

So please accept my apologies for that.

	01-02-2003 01:00									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ahem. An envoy from Picahulu of Neu Theban:

Dear Friend History Guy,

my Sultan Borc agrees that we should meet as soon as possible to discuss future borders. He proposed to meet on Wednesday, February 5.th at 7 PM GMT (that is 3 PM in NYC) or later at this day. If you can't come at this date you may think February 6.th at the same time is better, otherwise please just make another proposal.

To accellerate an agreement my people ask for a detailed border proposal. If you're ready to do so we would be happy if you could give us a map with a borderline, that shows your conception of the future. It would be just perfect if you show us your ideas one or two days before our meeting to give us some time to discuss internally.

We are delighted that your wisemen have mastered the secrets of mysticism but i'm afraid we have nothing to offer in exchange at this moment. Nevertheless we hope that our agreement to trade Math against writing is still valid, although there will be another 11 turns until research is finished here. I'm sure you'll understand we had to decrease science funding after the recent invasion of Lux Invicta. Here is the whole story:

The Ottomans sent one of their warriors into our country. We ordered him to leave immedeately but instead he walked just further towards Neu Theben until he was just one step away from our capital!
Later, the ambassador of Lux claimed that the warrior only intended to save time. That was an impudent lie, because the warrior would have arrived his destination at the same time without invading our country, and we do not doubt they used their turn to cheat!

As i've already written to you, the Ottomans force us to cooperate with the chinese, i.e. we will trade technology with them when it's possible. We don't think there is a trio-pact because we won't trade with Lux Invicta and we suppose your civ doesn't like the Chinese. We've also traded some map information with the chinese but of course we didn't give them any information about spanish territory. Nevertheless we feel that it's alright to inform our neighbours about the unoccupied territory around us, as long as nobody has signed a border contract, and we hope you agree with that.

We're looking forward to meet you for the first time and wish you all the best!

Yours, Picahulu
Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica

	01-02-2003 02:18									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I posted this an hour ago...so why didn't the blasted thread bump?!!

	01-02-2003 02:28									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Edit: Oops, wrong thread for "Commentary". Original post now here .

Last edited by dejon on 01-02-2003 at 02:34

	01-02-2003 02:42									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

History Guy -- Inform Neu Dem that we will meet with them for a chat at the specified time (2/5 7pm GMT) ... so long as you can make that time. I will take my lunch during that time and should be able to assist in the chat.

We will send a preliminary border proposal to them a few days before the chat. We ask that they also send us border proposal. Get them to agree on a date for the border proposal exchange ... 2/3? 2/4?

We will be happy to trade with them for mathematics once they finish researching it.

We will try to help to keep the peace and can assure them that we will not assist Lux should they try to harm Neu Dem. We hope that GoW never has to get involved, because they would be the only nation to profit from a war between ND & Lux.

Ask if they would like to purchase Mysticsm from us.

--Togas

	01-02-2003 02:47									#19
	Got spare money?

Right, sir. I will see what can be done.

However, as you can see, they say that as of now they have nothing to give us for Mysticism.

As for the post, for reasons stipulated in the 'Warrants Thread', I may resign in future.

Thank you, Milord, all power to you.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	01-02-2003 06:35									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Arnelos,

Thank you - and forget it - as usual I lost my cool - its that Hot Latin Blood in my veins.

Now on to affairs of state: BFM at Lux greatly appreciated my email to Panzer.

His response to the news of no trade:

quote: Hi jdjdjd ! How disappointing! We just settled things with GoW (thanks again for the PM to them - it helped!) and agreed to be able to trade with you. I talked to your boss Togas about this, and he explained the situation. GoW is offering an amount of gold plus the retreat of their warrior, he said. That might be a better deal for you, however, remember that GoW sent that warrior there in the first place. I don't think the retreat of it should be part of the deal, but that is entirely up to you. Togas said that his preference is to trade with us, and we can do business if things with GoW go astray after all. If this is the case, we can talk more about trading contact with Vox... Do you have MSN Messenger? It will help to get in closer contact. My address: $%$^^&&& . BFM

I took out his address - for his privacy.

I am surprised he responded so politely. Now, GoW would never have responded this way. I still don't trust Trip, but for now Lux should be a trade partner of high standing.

Thank you to Togas for speaking with him.

My apologies to Togas, Arnelos, and to all, for overeacting. I am protective of my negotiations.

	01-02-2003 07:31									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Update: A few days ago Trip send me the MSN messanger info for himself and BFM. I added them both to my list. BFM contacted me last night and we chatted a little bit about the trade situation and my confusion over what, exactly, their deal was with GoW. I still don't have a solid answer, as BFM ultimately told me that their renegotiated deal was a secret. I asked him to send a PM to jdjdjd with their current status and told him a little about why we were tied up with GoW and the horseback riding trade.

I highly recommend making yourself available to your country and chatting with their members informally or formally as much as possible. You don't need to reveal very much. Mostly what we're doing right now is building relationships with the other teams.

--Togas

	01-02-2003 08:01									#22
	Suffering from ads?

jdjdjd -- Additionally, I need you to push and poke a bit at Lux to see if we can work out a trade for their contact with Vox. Get them to at least propose a price to us, we'll negotiate from there.

--Togas

	01-02-2003 08:04									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ghengis Farb enclosed the following message when he emailed us the save:

quote: I am sorry, and this is by no means meant to be a hostile act, but the mapping of the continent is an incredibly valuable resource, both strategically and for trade after Mapmaking. We have waited several turns for a definite trade deal on Writing and there simply hasn't been an offer. The minute a finalized deal is agreed on we will move our warriors out but as we moved them north in good faith and have lost those turns of exploration our team must make some progress either in mapped area or new technology.

I have forwarded this message to adaMada who wrote me back and informed me that the only sticking point in the negotiations is the "no trade for X turns" clause. He is waiting for their reply. The deal should be done shortly.

They WILL NOT receive writing, however, until they've left our countryside. If they want to stall by moving further in, they only harm themselves.

--Togas

	01-02-2003 08:11									#24
	Put an end to popups!

What an impatient jackass! We just had a good (I thought) team-to-team chat, where it was made very clear that we would have Writing shortly. Of course GF is simply stalling to either explore more and/or piss us off again - I sincerely think his aim is to always keep us mad, with the hope we'll be the first to declare war - so that they can "take the high road".

I'll say it again - we should not enter or even discuss agreements with GF/GoW unless we can make them immediately. Otherwise, we are just giving him fuel for his warmonger psychology games.

Not to mention that he is, once again, using improper communication channels that Togas has told him twice to not do. Just more evidence of his "let's piss them off until they blow" approach.

	01-02-2003 08:39									#25
	Put an end to popups!

This is the message I just sent to Togas, which includes the message I've sent to Panzer. As I've said, Ghengis might be blowing steam -- that's happened before -- and I only sent them an acceptance of their #3 offer last night, though that was mainly because I was waiting on them to get back to me about one part of the no-retrading clause. Anyway, it is annoying, but I think they'll probably back off -- Ghengis actually used the words "do not have an offer." I'm betting he doesn't realize/hasn't been told they got an offer last night -- typical GoW diplogaffe -- and I don't think they'll stick to their guns over this issue. They COULD be serious -- it goes hand in hand with a PM I got from Panzer while resolving the noretrade issue -- and if they are, they're probably trying to get a better deal out of the situation. I don't think they've got ground to stand on, however -- everything I've accepted has been something they've offered, and if they try to blame delay on us, we can point out that at least half (and probably more) of the delay has been us waiting on replies from them.

Frankly, I don't think they'll stick to their guns on the issue -- they've no ground to stand on. As long as they don't make us angry, what can they do? We're basically agreeing to things they've offered us over the past few days...

-- adaMada

quote: Togas, Just sent the following PM to Panzer about the issue. It bsaically puts the pressure on him to either call it a mistake or explain what's going on. If he does turn arond and say that the message's contents stand, then I'll hit him with all the tougher stuff -- no writing till you leave and etc. Until then, no reason to even mention it -- let's make him admit that it's official policy before we rip em for it . It's also very possible that Ghengis either wasn't informed or missed that a deal was in the works, and it could simply be a lack of communication within their team (it's happened before). -- adaMada quote: Dear Panzer, Togas has just told me that Ghengis dropped him an odd note in the most recent save -- something about your warrior returning to our lands or whatnot as you've "waited for several turns and there has not been an offer". I must admit, I was rather surprised at this, as I sent an offer last night -- accepting condition three and your original offer for a fifteen turn no-tech trade agreement. Assuming the PM came through all right, I've gotta assume that this is simply a mistake. I understand that both teams obviously need time to discuss before making a further deal, but I feel that we are negotiating, and that we have made an offer. I’m sure it’s probably a mistake, or perhaps overlapping events, but I wanted to shoot you a quick PM and try to clarify the whole issue before anything gets out of hand . -- adaMada

	02-02-2003 03:20									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Just recieved the following PM from Panzer. It looks good to me -- Togas, anything wrong with it or can I accept? Their turn is before ours, so we should be able to see their warrior starting to back out before we give 'em writing.

What should I tell them about what we're researching?

-- adaMada

quote: adaMada, It seems that in the chaos, that your PM got forgot about (perhaps because a new page was started after its posting). We have also recieved messages from Togas asking whether you have been active. I now see that you have been waiting for us... Therefore (wording changed to reflect Roleplay having discovered writing): The Glory of War accepts this deal. The points are: -GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold, all now. -Roleplay Gives: Writing, now. -Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition. This deal is accepted by the GoW. When Roleplay accepts it, it will be final. About the 15 turn non-trading: I assume this starts at 1950bc, since that is the curent turn. I calculate that 15 turns from that is 1500bc, since the switch from 40 year turns to 25 year turns happens at 1750bc. If I am wrong, please contact me. Thank you. Also, question: what tech is Roleplay researching now? This is so the Glory of War can chose a different tech and then we can trade. Panzer32, Foreign Affairs Consul the Glory of War

	02-02-2003 03:48									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Anything wrong with it or can I accept? Their turn is before ours, so we should be able to see their warrior starting to back out before we give 'em writing. What should I tell them about what we're researching?

CHANGE this to the following:

-GoW Gives: Horseback riding now. GoW begins warrior removal.

-Roleplay Gives: Writing for 60g AFTER the removal of the GoW warriors

-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.

quote: Also, question: what tech is Roleplay researching now?

We will consider exchanging this information as well as cooperation on tech research AFTER GoW warriors have left our territory. Until they leave, we will not discuss such matters at all.

--Togas

	02-02-2003 03:50									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Definition: Removal of BOTH warriors = moving them north of our northernmost city, Saragossa.

--Togas

	02-02-2003 06:51									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok -- I'll write a PM and try to get the deal changed as such. To be honest, it's not something I'm looking forward to writing, or even something I know how I'm going to write yet. It's a tough case to make -- they offered to give us Horseback before we had writing, and it'll be very hard for us to play the "we don't trust you" line if they bring that up. My Lord's instructions are my command, and I'll get to work on it ASAP, but I wanted to go ahead and indicate that I'm not exactly sure how to approch the issue while still coming across as reasonable. Having said all of that, I'll do my best, and don't mean to say it can't be done -- I just wanted to go ahead and point out that it's not the easiest case to make.

-- adaMada

	02-02-2003 07:37									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Having said all of that, I'll do my best, and don't mean to say it can't be done -- I just wanted to go ahead and point out that it's not the easiest case to make.

This was our deal. This is not a change. They said they would leave. They must leave. I'm not going to give them writing and then watch them continue to explore afterwards. Do not feel sorry for GoW in the slightest, or feel like they don't "deserve" such skepticism, or feel that we're suddenly telling them that we don't trust them. We've never trusted them. Before or after deal. Which is why these things must be spelled out explicitly in very neutral language.

Include this clarification in very neutral language. Don't make a big deal out of it. Remember, that our goal has always been to get them out of our country and THEY AGREE to leave, and their leaving is a condition upon which this whole deal is founded upon.

--Togas