31-01-2003 00:34									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Harel Oslo was not a mistake. The mistake was to elect right-wing morons that only hindered the procceeding at every foot-steps. If Barak remained at power until today he would have managed to reach an agreement with Arafat and all would be well now. But no, we had to force his hand to go to election, and then our moronic people elected Sharon, crushing any hope for salvation. One reeps what one sews.

no, b'anglit, one reaps what one sows. one rips what one sews, at least if youre as clumsy with a needle and thread as I am.

	31-01-2003 01:16									#92
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quote: If Barak remained at power until today he would have managed to reach an agreement with Arafat and all would be well now

holy crap. do you believe that? Barak doesn't believe Arafat but you do? But I guess you know better.

	31-01-2003 01:39									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel holy crap. do you believe that? Barak doesn't believe Arafat but you do? But I guess you know better.

You don't need to believe in Arafat in order to complete an agreement with him. I'm positive that without right-wing interfernce for the past ten years we would have had some-sort of peace and tranquility by now(and we would have had Rabin, but that's a different discussion altogther).

Back to the discussion in hand, whatever Oslo was a mistake or not is mute. Sharon has obiviously failed in the security front - there are more terrorist attacks now then ever before. Saying Oslo is a mistake is ludicrous - the right-wing, blow them up attitude so far only brought more attacks. There are far more attacks now then in Barak or Rabin era's.

	31-01-2003 02:03									#94
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quote: You don't need to believe in Arafat in order to complete an agreement with him. I'm positive that without right-wing interfernce for the past ten years we would have had some-sort of peace and tranquility by now

and I am POSITIVE, ABSOLUTELY SURE, that we'd all be thrown to the sea, by hords of arabs.
If the leader who's heading the other side is not trustworthy, how exactly are you planning to reach that peace and tranquility?

It seems that the past two years did split the dovish camp right in the middle. Come on, Harel. be reasonable. I am willing to give all that barak agreed to give: 97%+exchange in territories, East Jerusalem, but who are you planning to give them to? walls protect us from direct fire only, not from various ballistic weaponary. If we just leave, like Mizna plans, and no responsiblity on the other side, what do you think will happen? peace and security? even if the general palestinian populace will not want any more war, etc. It was never them who attacked us. it was always the various organizations. and when you're out of there, what will you do then?

Come on, Harel. Meretz doesn't want to deal with arafat, do you?

	31-01-2003 02:35									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel and I am POSITIVE, ABSOLUTELY SURE, that we'd all be thrown to the sea, by hords of arabs. If the leader who's heading the other side is not trustworthy, how exactly are you planning to reach that peace and tranquility? It seems that the past two years did split the dovish camp right in the middle. Come on, Harel. be reasonable. I am willing to give all that barak agreed to give: 97%+exchange in territories, East Jerusalem, but who are you planning to give them to? walls protect us from direct fire only, not from various ballistic weaponary. If we just leave, like Mizna plans, and no responsiblity on the other side, what do you think will happen? peace and security? even if the general palestinian populace will not want any more war, etc. It was never them who attacked us. it was always the various organizations. and when you're out of there, what will you do then? Come on, Harel. Meretz doesn't want to deal with arafat, do you?

No, YOU come on. Do you believe for a minute Sharon won't make a one-sided exit himself eventually? All this nonsense on how Mitzana plan is ridicolous. Yes, we would lose all control over the west bank. Yes, it won't stop terrorists, and yes they could still use ballistic weapons.

So what? None of that change the fact that we don't have the economic capability to remain in the bank, and that us remaining there has no effect at all. The net amount of terrorist attacks now is higher then ever before, and nothing we can do will stop it. What is going to happen is that Sharon will leave just like Mitzana proposed to do. Are you seriously fooled by his promises? The Likud is a left-wing party now, willing to give the Palestinians land and portions of jerusalem. Eventually Sharon will make a one-sided exit. If you don't see it, you need to open your eyes. Whatever it will bring peace or prosperity is really pointless since we are going to do it anyway.

Besides that, the Lebanon border is quiet and with the large walls in Gaza there is a huge decline in the number of terrorist attacks originating from there, even thought it's far less controlled, with better access to muniation and it's a wealthier district. All the high-brass agreed that the wall greatly diminished most threats from Gaza, and it could do the same to the west bank. And this is all we CAN do. Sitting there and spending billions of dollars on acomplishing nothing.

But this is bullshit. The Likudniks are frauds and morons. You can't know Mitzana solution would work or not because you haven't tried it. Sharon solution, however, is obiviously not working. Why people have voted to him again, when he is obiviously clueless? Because they are morons. Anyone who says all he cares is security and not peace but end up voting for the biggest security risk Israel ever had is a fruad.

	31-01-2003 03:07									#96
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quote: No, YOU come on. Do you believe for a minute Sharon won't make a one-sided exit himself eventually?

It depends on the international situation. I might support him, I might not. Now, we'll lose far more than we'll gain. We actually have an opportunity to change things on the other side, esp. if Iraq goes well.

quote: All this nonsense on how Mitzana plan is ridicolous. Yes, we would lose all control over the west bank. Yes, it won't stop terrorists, and yes they could still use ballistic weapons.

I am glad you agree.

quote: So what? None of that change the fact that we don't have the economic capability to remain in the bank, and that us remaining there has no effect at all.

We can always cut down our presense, and not keep our operational deployments. The MoD has Lots of excess fat, everyone knows that.

quote: The net amount of terrorist attacks now is higher then ever before, and nothing we can do will stop it.

that's not true, you seem to forget how many suicide bombings we had before "Defencive Shield"

quote: What is going to happen is that Sharon will leave just like Mitzana proposed to do. Are you seriously fooled by his promises?

what promises? Ariel Sharon hasn't promised "I WILL NOT UNDER ANY SIRCUMSTANCES LEAVE THE WEST BANK UNILATERALLY".
I'd love him to talk more peacefully, and have a more moderate stance towards europe. They like having their ego stoked. Sharon imo doesn't do enough on the intl. arena, though it is definetly hard for him, after the belgians wanted to prosecute him over Sabra and Shatila, while not trying to prosecute the actual commander of the Phalanx on the field.

quote: The Likud is a left-wing party now, willing to give the Palestinians land and portions of jerusalem. Eventually Sharon will make a one-sided exit. If you don't see it, you need to open your eyes. Whatever it will bring peace or prosperity is really pointless since we are going to do it anyway.

I see it. I am glad that they're pragmatic about it.
hmmm, so let me get this straight. Sharon will eventually make a one-sided exit. why doesn't he do that now? It's not like he has much time left, you know. He's an old guy.

Your point of view is ... intriguing, btw.

quote: Besides that, the Lebanon border is quiet and with the large walls in Gaza there is a huge decline in the number of terrorist attacks originating from there, even thought it's far less controlled, with better access to muniation and it's a wealthier district. All the high-brass agreed that the wall greatly diminished most threats from Gaza, and it could do the same to the west bank. And this is all we CAN do. Sitting there and spending billions of dollars on acomplishing nothing.

for land based, attacks, things have definetly improved. But the recent mortar attacks just show our weakness to non-direct fire from urban conecentrations with no restraining authority on the other side. Hizbullah is quite not because we left Lebanon, but because Syrian pressure. Syria knows that it walks on very shaky diplomatic grounds when it allows Hizbullah to do anything. They'll lose all legitimacy in mainstream public opinion around the world, if they'll continue provoking Israel on the northen border, and they'll also face an Israeli response, against which they have no chance whatsoever. Even that didn't stop them from pinching Israel until some time ago ( let me remind you on that mining of a border road in the WESTERN sector, in which a soldier was killed and another one injured ). All that until Israel sent to Washington a message, that another such attack will cause a response directed at Syria. It was the last thing washington needs, of course, and it sent a very strong message to Syria. Since then, "all is quiet on the northen front".

Though that Syrian reconaissance mission still puzzles me.

	31-01-2003 03:10									#97
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I hereby declare that this is no longer an Israeli election thread, and is now another Mideast conflict thread, with the distinction that it is being argued from the Israeli point of view. Perhaps time soon for a seperate Israeli coalition maneuverings thread?????

	31-01-2003 03:20									#98
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Unless mafdal are *******s, we'll see a government.

	31-01-2003 03:47									#99
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Azazel, your post has no real point beyond that. You voiced no reason what we should keep a total failure as our prime minister.

You said the sitution with Iraq might change things. Well, true. But Sharon is certainly not as equipped as Mitzna and the Avoda for the diplomatic negotitions required to utilitize this to our advantage.

Cutting down our presence and move back the operational front is de-facto a one-sided exit. Building a wall will only help us protect our new landholds.

BTW, I am not forgetting how many suicide attacks were before the so called defensive shield. You are misguided by the false sense of right-wing security. The was a steady acline in the rate of suicide bombings and the last three months were the most active in Israel society in casulaties number. The defense shield is totally ineffective.

You then do about saying what sharon did not promise. But you fail to realize that the majority of the people who selected him did so because they have a filling he won't give back any territories to the Palestiains. Why? Well, I did say they were morons and don't even bother to listen to their own elected leader... but if you want a more moderate and peaceful Sharon, why vote for him anyway and not for Mitzna, who has a much better track record then Sharon (zero is better then a negative)?

Finally, I'm tired of the paranoic "syriain interference" babbling. Has it come to you that maybe the Lebanon border is quiet now not because of Syria pressure but because we stopped occupying those territories unlawfully, which was the reason the Hizballa attacked us in the beginning? Has it occured to you it's quiet because we finall did things RIGHT, and when you do that you get peace? No, no, it's much better to go on about conspiracies and syrian interference and not learn the message that maybe, sometimes, leaving a contesed area is quite alright.

But let's leave that outside. We can say that when we will make an exit there will be pressure for Palestiain government, local authority and both egypt and Jordan for them to calm down hostilities, just like you claim Syria is keeping the Lebanon border quiet. So maybe that IS the reason, but as long as it's quiet, why should I care?



Doesn't matter. We will have another elections very soon because Sharon just doesn't cut. It might take awhile, but finally the people would see.

	31-01-2003 04:24									#100
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quote: Azazel, your post has no real point beyond that. You voiced no reason what we should keep a total failure as our prime minister.

If Sharon would be a total failure, this would be true. I personally didn't vote for him, but I don't think there was a choice in these elections. Mitzna? the man has no experience at all on the national level, just look at his "Under no circumstances will we go to national unity" which is like a will, and a suicide note in a single sentence. I predicted it to cost him dearly from day one.

quote: You said the sitution with Iraq might change things. Well, true. But Sharon is certainly not as equipped as Mitzna and the Avoda for the diplomatic negotitions required to utilitize this to our advantage.

what the hell do you mean by "equipped"? who has the bigger willy?

seriously, negotiations are based on deeds, and so far, Sharon has played very well with Bush. dealing with the euros is a different deal, and he did make mistakes there, but the maximum one could have done is minimize damages, with the public opinion in europe, and global political trends.

quote: Cutting down our presence and move back the operational front is de-facto a one-sided exit. Building a wall will only help us protect our new landholds.

isn't that what Mizna proposes? to build a wall? I propose to build a wall, and to stay inside, and if necessary for economic reasons, to scale back operations.

quote: BTW, I am not forgetting how many suicide attacks were before the so called defensive shield. You are misguided by the false sense of right-wing security. The was a steady acline in the rate of suicide bombings and the last three months were the most active in Israel society in casulaties number. The defense shield is totally ineffective.

I claim this to be not true. If you get some numbers, we'll talk.

quote: You then do about saying what sharon did not promise. But you fail to realize that the majority of the people who selected him did so because they have a filling he won't give back any territories to the Palestiains.

a) you probably mean "feeling".
b)au contraire. It was Sharon positioning himself strongly in the middle of the political spectrum that allowed him to grab what is in Israeli terms a landslide victory. That was the thing that forced Labor to Shift to the Dovish side, in order to provide an alternative, since then they'll be Likud 2, and if you have an original and a lookalike, why vote for the lookalike?

quote: Why? Well, I did say they were morons and don't even bother to listen to their own elected leader... but if you want a more moderate and peaceful Sharon, why vote for him anyway and not for Mitzna, who has a much better track record then Sharon (zero is better then a negative)?

This is not a linear thing. Mitzna is not used at all to the political game. He tries to cut it with honesty, but this is not how international politics, or even national ones, are played.

quote: Finally, I'm tired of the paranoic "syriain interference" babbling. Has it come to you that maybe the Lebanon border is quiet now not because of Syria pressure but because we stopped occupying those territories unlawfully, which was the reason the Hizballa attacked us in the beginning? Has it occured to you it's quiet because we finall did things RIGHT, and when you do that you get peace? No, no, it's much better to go on about conspiracies and syrian interference and not learn the message that maybe, sometimes, leaving a contesed area is quite alright.

Then why were our soldiers and civilians kidnapped?
Then why were our soldiers attacked and killed?

quote: But let's leave that outside. We can say that when we will make an exit there will be pressure for Palestiain government, local authority and both egypt and Jordan for them to calm down hostilities, just like you claim Syria is keeping the Lebanon border quiet. So maybe that IS the reason, but as long as it's quiet, why should I care?

totally different cases. Hizbullah is on some level dependent on Syria, while the IJ and Hamas are not dependent Egypt and Jordan. to the contrary, they're bitter enemies.

	31-01-2003 04:59									#101
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quote: Azazel, your post has no real point beyond that. You voiced no reason what we should keep a total failure as our prime minister.

Oh puh-lease.

If we count one thing he did well - is he made us masters of our own security.

There are several attempts for a terrorist attack per day.
Under the current situation (IDF acts freely in west bank and gaza) , we have 1 terract per month.

Let's imagine how it would be if we didn't act freely and relied on the PLO to stop attackers (while they actually promote them).

Wait, we don't have to imagine. Let's just go back to March 2002 with an average of 3 terrorist attacks per day.

Hmmm....

Let's compare:

Relying on Palestinians to provide security : 3 terracts per day
Relying on IDF to provide security : 1/28 = 0.03 terracts per day

quote: You said the sitution with Iraq might change things. Well, true. But Sharon is certainly not as equipped as Mitzna and the Avoda for the diplomatic negotitions required to utilitize this to our advantage.

Absolutely and completely untrue.

Sharon if anything is much smarter than Mitzna and the Avoda, and can get us out of the peace mess with the least damages to territorial integrity and security.

quote: Cutting down our presence and move back the operational front is de-facto a one-sided exit. Building a wall will only help us protect our new landholds.

No wonder normal states have walls and borders. They want to protect their land. We apparently don't.

Cutting down our presense in an area bustling with terrorist activity as long as that activity is still high would be silly.

The withdrawal from Lebanon seems great now, because you can't open your eyes and watch the future. FACT Syria and Iran gave dozens of thousands of rockets to the Hezbullah. They are now all pointed at Israel, and some can almost reach Gush Dan. Oh, and some of them are equipped with Bio-Chem war heads.

quote: BTW, I am not forgetting how many suicide attacks were before the so called defensive shield. You are misguided by the false sense of right-wing security. The was a steady acline in the rate of suicide bombings and the last three months were the most active in Israel society in casulaties number. The defense shield is totally ineffective.

casualties number? huh? IIRC March 2002 had dozens of casualties.

In any case, you can't compare casualties. 1 bloody terract per month is much less dangerous than 50 little terracts, since it minimizes my chances of getting hurt.

quote: You then do about saying what sharon did not promise. But you fail to realize that the majority of the people who selected him did so because they have a filling he won't give back any territories to the Palestiains.

Nonsense.

Ever since he was elected in 2000 Sharon speaks of a Palestinain state.

The only difference being, that unlike Mitzna who can't wait to get over with it, Sharon takes care of timing and appearance.

If we appear to be as scared and easy-to-push as Mitzna wants, this will be the end of Israel in 20 years.

quote: Why? Well, I did say they were morons and don't even bother to listen to their own elected leader...

everyone I know who is completely against a palestian state has voted either National Union or MAFDAL.

quote: but if you want a more moderate and peaceful Sharon, why vote for him anyway and not for Mitzna, who has a much better track record then Sharon (zero is better then a negative)?

LOL

Sharon has so far ended the Oslo crap , made the Tunissian leadership irrelevant and made sure the terrorist supporting countries are not forgot in the campaign against terror (Iran will be next).

And you call this zero?

What would you call doing, ya hippie? Going away completely to pacify the palestinian terrorists?

Every concession we make that isn't fought for, is lost.

We could give the palestinian people or leadership all kinds of "presents" until 2020, but the still won't like us here, and would do what they can to make us gone.

quote: Finally, I'm tired of the paranoic "syriain interference" babbling. Has it come to you that maybe the Lebanon border is quiet now not because of Syria pressure but because we stopped occupying those territories unlawfully, which was the reason the Hizballa attacked us in the beginning?

Yes, you are absolutely right.

I mean, the moment we withdrew, Hezballah stopped killing our soldiers, kidnapping them, supplying the Palestinians weapons, and creating terrorist cells within Israel.

Oh wait, my bad - you're abso-fukin-lutely wrong.

Everytime we don't pressure Syria , Hezballah against begins launching anti tank rockets into Israel proper.

You know what will happen once Iran has a nuclear umbrella to hold over Syria? We will have zero deterrance against Hezballah.

You know what will happen then? Intifada 2005!

quote: Has it occured to you it's quiet because we finall did things RIGHT, and when you do that you get peace?

Has it ever occured to you that it's about as "quiet" with Lebanon as the Polish border was on August 1939??

quote: No, no, it's much better to go on about conspiracies and syrian interference and not learn the message that maybe, sometimes, leaving a contesed area is quite alright.

How infinitely smart!
Let us throw out out intelligence showing that Syria Iran and Hezballah are preparing for conflict!

Let's forget about Syrian tyrannical occupation of Lebanon, and Iran's goals of achieving hegemony in the ME.

Let's forget everything we learn about our enemies, and instead burry our heads into the sand, and rejoice that it seems oh so quiet when our ears are filled with sand.

quote: But let's leave that outside. We can say that when we will make an exit there will be pressure for Palestiain government, local authority and both egypt and Jordan for them to calm down hostilities, just like you claim

You know, I though that in August 2000, after camp david failed. "There will be pressure on the Palestinians that will prevent violence". Didn't work.

I thought "there will be pressure on the Hezballah" but they still bomb Israel,, prepare more weapons for a later showdown, and attempt to kidnap soldiers every couple of months.

quote: Syria is keeping the Lebanon border quiet. So maybe that IS the reason, but as long as it's quiet, why should I care?

Because you have to look at the future for a period longer than your nose.

Once Iran completes their nuclear project, Israel will have no option of war against Hezbullah.

If it will start a campaign against Lebanon and Syria, Syria and Hezbullah will respond with CBW.

If Israel responds with CBW or nukes, Iran responds with nukes.


I can't believe that all you freaking care about is that you will have peace and quiet for the next week, and you can't strategically analyze what is going on around you.

You sound like a jew in germany who thinks that if he'll join the jewish organization and create his autonomy, his nazi neighbours will stop picking at him.

And you keep wanting to decide Israel's fate how you see fit, and according to your taste, even after having delcared a few posts ago, that you don't intend to stay here. If you don't intend to stay here, then go away, and stop making decisions which will affect those who will stay here.

quote: Doesn't matter. We will have another elections very soon because Sharon just doesn't cut. It might take awhile, but finally the people would see.

Hopefully, the blind will see, sometime.

And on a completely unrelated topic: I loved your article against false critques of computer game violence in Gamer.co.il

	31-01-2003 06:40									#102
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We'll, I had a very long post here... the little gizmo below posted 8500 chars. I guess I should be impressed by how much I can talk. Mostly angry, political screams of rightful anger and zeal, a lone cry against the masses of idiots that are filling our land... and indeed Siro post had so many faults, so many shortcoming, that I'm just HAVE TO COMMENT...

But I won't. I'm tired. I'm tired of people like Siro who their solution for anyone who is malcontent with the things here is to tell them to go away. Yes, I'll go away, just like most of Israel most promising youth who are slowly draining away, leaving for better lands. We're a stupid country, a country full of blind hatred and just general blindness. I'm tired of the right-wing drivel and it's two-faced approach to anything. I'm tired on how they go on and on how it's wrong to trust the arabs and "look at all the oslo crap" and they say nothing when their own leaders do the same. I'm tired of people saying how we can't trust the arabs and look at all the intelligence danger of Lebanon, but know and support their leaders when they go and sign peace treaties with the same people. I mean, it was the same intelligence and people who screams that it's wrong to give away the Snai and low and behold, it was alright when the Likud did it. Now they flaunt it as signs of "right-wing prowress". "yes, look, we made peace!" Sure you made peace. You topple any left wing party that wants to do the same earlier and better, then wait for your own leaders to say it's ok - because if the right says it's ok, then it must be ok... and if a few extra hundred people died in the duration, so what?



I'm tired. So tired. This country is beyond redemption. It's full of morons, people who say "Sharon gave us control of our own security" when Israel is in the worst state of terror ever... March 2002, Jaunary 2003, what does it matter? Even now we are in worse danger then back in Barak or Rabin regime.

We have the evidence right in front of us. We invade and set perimters, and they will build rockets. Nothing we'll do can stop them. A blockade or invasion does nothing - the only thing it's going to do is to push them more toward rockets, refining their skill and ability until they will get the same casulaties and destruction even with our blockade. In the mean time, we loss life and money. Everyone knows we need to leave, everyone knows we must have a drastic change... but they go and re-elect the same moron.

Unbelivable.

On a side note, I got 1440 on my second SAT. All the coasts are clear for my deprture. Hopefully, I won't be here for the next elections... but just for siro, I'll fly back to vote.

Last edited by Harel on 31-01-2003 at 07:26

	31-01-2003 07:39									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Do I understand the situation correctly - Sharon will not form a right wing government because the right wing parties either want to remove Arafat involuntarily or forever deny a Palestinian state -- and both positions are inconsistent with previously stated positions of the United States?

Somehow I have a gut feeling the final coalition will be Likud, Shinui and one or two less extreme of the right wing parties. For the experts, which of the right wing parties is this like to be?

	31-01-2003 08:06									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Somehow I have a gut feeling the final coalition will be Likud, Shinui and one or two less extreme of the right wing parties. For the experts, which of the right wing parties is this like to be?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...sID=0&listSrc=Y

The most likely one of those, I think, is the 64 seat coalition.

	31-01-2003 12:03									#105
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quote: We'll, I had a very long post here... the little gizmo below posted 8500 chars. I guess I should be impressed by how much I can talk. Mostly angry, political screams of rightful anger and zeal, a lone cry against the masses of idiots that are filling our land... and indeed Siro post had so many faults, so many shortcoming, that I'm just HAVE TO COMMENT...

I know the feeling very well

I've been posting here for 3 years while you were away.

quote: But I won't. I'm tired. I'm tired of people like Siro who their solution for anyone who is malcontent with the things here is to tell them to go away. Yes, I'll go away, just like most of Israel most promising youth who are slowly draining away, leaving for better lands.

*sugh*
I appologize if you were hurt, but my solution of going away is reserved strictly to you - because you already decided you want to go away. If you have already decided to leave, then please, do it, without interefering with me.

And however nice it is to have Jewish support, I don't think that jews from the diaspora should vote on issues which won't affect them.

The fact is, that you, my friend, are leaving anyway. Thus even if your policy of appeasement fails miserably, you couldn't care less - your future is guaranteed elsewhere.

I however, have to keep thinking about worst case scenarios, and consider them in my political actions, since I don't plan on leaving, nor will I be capable if I suddenly feel like it.

As for your cry about the better youth leaving, maybe the most promising Israeli secular left wing ashkenazim are. And even that is doubted.

I personally happen to know alot of promising Israeli youth who are staying, and consider myself to be such, and have reason to do so.

From my experience of talking to lefties, those who think of leaving, are usually those who never felt really connected to the idea of Israel in the first place. Rather people who consider themselves "citizens of the world" or citizens of some european nationality. I'm sorry that that is your attitude, but if it is, fine then, go.

But don't drag Israel with you, by implementing risky policies on the people who will stay here.

quote: We're a stupid country, a country full of blind hatred and just general blindness. I'm tired of the right-wing drivel and it's two-faced approach to anything. I'm tired on how they go on and on how it's wrong to trust the arabs and "look at all the oslo crap" and they say nothing when their own leaders do the same.

I don't deny Israel is a very problematic and corrupt country.

However, your expectation of Israel to always do 'the right thing', often against it's more basic interests, such as territory, security, demography etc, is a bit naive.

Also naive is your belief that all the ME problems derive from Israel's "naughty" behaviour, and that once it changes - peace will soon come. You must have two partners for a peace tango, and there is no one on the arab side.

Israel was mostly very peacefull and non-agressive until the latter parts of the 1948 war, and it only brought it troubles. Being agressive brought it the same amount of troubles, but more gain to go along.

quote: I'm tired of people saying how we can't trust the arabs and look at all the intelligence danger of Lebanon, but know and support their leaders when they go and sign peace treaties with the same people. I mean, it was the same intelligence and people who screams that it's wrong to give away the Snai and low and behold, it was alright when the Likud did it.

You're completely missing the point, because your grasp of strategic politics is weak.

Objectively and in the long goal , it is right to give away the golans, the west bank and gaza.

However, you seem to think that the sooner you'll get rid of it, the soon peace will come - which is not true.

Each peace step has to have it's time, and one must make sure that a concession does more good than harm. I trust Sharon to use that judgement. Mitzna however, wanted to throw all the territories away and burry the head into the sand. "If we build a wall around us, we can pretend we have no enemies"

quote: Now they flaunt it as signs of "right-wing prowress". "yes, look, we made peace!" Sure you made peace. You topple any left wing party that wants to do the same earlier and better, then wait for your own leaders to say it's ok - because if the right says it's ok, then it must be ok... and if a few extra hundred people died in the duration, so what?

But again, you see only one case scenario - the sooner you give away territory - the sooner peace comes.

That is not true. It was demonstrated very well in the 1930s, when Britain and France decided to let Germany have back the territories taken from it in the Versailles treaties.

Your problem, and the left's problem in general, that it is still very racist at heart, and keeps under estimating everyone around it.

You are completely sure that outside of your vision, there is no vision, and the right wing voters are all some kind of stupid minions who follow their leaders, like sheep (remember the Meretz campaign?)

You are completely underestimate the arabs, thinking that they are some kind of sheep. You don't give them the respect of thinking they have strategic plans, or aspirations. All they want to do, according to the leftist mantra, is live in thier homes on their land. As if they were too some kind of sheep, who simply miss thier natural habitat.

You fail to attribute them higher thinking, and wishes to actually rule themselves, and have the same demographic, security and national concerns that you attribute to the "evil myths of the right wing".

But the fact is, that the Palestinian government, the PA, is a Likkud like government, and it's allies, are the Palestinian counterparts of Ihud Leumi, Shas, Herut and Kach.

But to you, they're all potencial Labor voters, "pushed too far".


This attitude is patronizing and mostly - misleading. This is the attitude the Israeli left had since the dawn of Zionism, and this is why there is no peace until this day.

Infact, every thing the Revizionist (spelled that way so that not confuse it with revisionist historians) movement predicted, happenned just like they said.

quote: I'm tired. So tired. This country is beyond redemption. It's full of morons, people who say "Sharon gave us control of our own security" when Israel is in the worst state of terror ever... March 2002, Jaunary 2003, what does it matter? Even now we are in worse danger then back in Barak or Rabin regime.

Absolute nonsense. You, sadly only manage to see the most immediate dangers.

Under the Barak and Rabing regimes, you were in danger, because this Intifada2000, was always in the plans. It was in Arafat's speaches. It was in Hamas' speaches.

And you know what - Barak fuking fooled you, and all the left. Barak knew very well what Arafat, the PLO and Oslo are worth. He said it himself when he was a Chief of Staff during the signing of Oslo.

When he came to power, he went out of his way to disprove your theory - that if you give everything now, peace will suddenly come.

What he did, is he ended the Oslo process, and stopped the Palestinian gain from passing time, as without an agreement, there would be no further lands or money given to the PLO.

So they organized their Intifada, and they are loosing , because it was too early. Had Peres been elected, and continued boiling it over small fire, all the while the pals would have readied themselves better, and would somday, their war effort would have succeeded.

Because no army can ever completely defeat tanzim or hamas without using mass murder as a weapon.

Face the evidence. I can give you a mass of sources from arab newspapers, in which chief palestinian 'negociators' say all but "oslo is a trojan horse". One has to be completely blind to ignore that.

quote: We have the evidence right in front of us. We invade and set perimters, and they will build rockets. Nothing we'll do can stop them. A blockade or invasion does nothing - the only thing it's going to do is to push them more toward rockets, refining their skill and ability until they will get the same casulaties and destruction even with our blockade.

Somehow, the syrrians, iranis, iraqis and even egyptians, all managed to get rockets and missiles and point them at us, even though we don't occupy their land (except golan heights).

quote: In the mean time, we loss life and money. Everyone knows we need to leave, everyone knows we must have a drastic change... but they go and re-elect the same moron.

Who is this everyone?
You. And some other 35,000 x (19 + 6) people who buy into the crap of "magic formulas".

Neither Mitzna and Beilin with thier "let's get out, now" , now Kleiner and Libermand with their "let's slaughter them all, now" , can end this conflict in a positive way.
The first option will leave no jews, and the second will leave no palestinians.

You are hungry for a magic pill, when all one can do, is put a wet cloth on your forhead and wait. long term well thought out strategy is the only way out.

And that is why I wanted Sharon to be PM. and that's why I voted for Shinui.

quote: On a side note, I got 1440 on my second SAT. All the coasts are clear for my deprture. Hopefully, I won't be here for the next elections... but just for siro, I'll fly back to vote.

congrats.
fare well then
I'll push for a law so that yordim can't vote

	31-01-2003 12:08									#106
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Jesus, I have so many idiotic spelling mistakes.

I appologize for all the mistakes in the above post - I haven't slept this night.

I will not, however, edit that post, since it is too damn long.

	31-01-2003 12:17									#107
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The Israeli elections are going out just like I thought.


Oh well......

	31-01-2003 19:10									#108
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OMG, Harel, I can't believe how condenscending are you.

"this country is beyond redemption". this sentence pisses me off sooo hard. Some people just cannot understand how well off are we here. While billions of people live in shacks, some people think that low crime, food, entertainment, shelter, and safety are obvious, granted, and if the country supplies nothing else, it's "beyond redemption"? well, so long!

	31-01-2003 20:59									#109
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The final election results are in giving the Likud 38 seats at the expenses of the Commie-Arabs (Chadash) boohoo and the National Religious 6 at the expense of Am Ehud. Note below that Aguda (Yadaduth Hatorah) got 8,000 more votes than the National Religious but the agreement of over votes with Am Ehud placed them ahead of Aguda.
Hashmonaim total votes 968 (of which 2 unvalid)

Likud 124 of 869,170 national total
Avoda 6 of 432,828 national total
Shinui 7 of 357,934
Shas 122 of 249,868
Ichud Lemui 144 of 165,094
Meretz 4 of 153,514
Mafdal 380 of 124,783
Yadaduth Hatora 29 of 132,158
Am Echad 1 of 83,986
Yisrael Baliya 86 of 66,266
Herouth 45 of 34,060
Ale Yarok 10 of 31,230 (This was the party for legalizing drugs and prostitution)
Ahavat Yisrael (Kadouri) 3 of 5,294
Yisrael Acheret 1 this was probably a mistake by a new immigrant who wanted Yisrael Baliya
Yerukim 4 or green party of 11,549

The vote gives Sharon a lot of options to form a government the easiest is Likud, Religious, Aliya party with 62 members of the Kennesset. Shinui is willing to go into the government with Aguda and the National Religious but not Shass.

hi ,

well the above speaks for itself , ......

have a nice day

	31-01-2003 21:01									#110
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Jesus, I have so many idiotic spelling mistakes. I appologize for all the mistakes in the above post - I haven't slept this night. I will not, however, edit that post, since it is too damn long.

hi ,

dont worry , you should read some of the mistakes the MFA makes , .....

they got no sleep neither

have a nice day

	31-01-2003 21:09									#111
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quote: Hashmonaim total votes 968 (of which 2 unvalid)

What's so important about Hashmonaim? Do you live there?

	31-01-2003 21:12									#112
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panag exposed.

	31-01-2003 21:31									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Eli quote: Hashmonaim total votes 968 (of which 2 unvalid) What's so important about Hashmonaim? Do you live there?

hi ,





have a nice day

	31-01-2003 21:31									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel panag exposed.

hi ,

yeah right , .........

have a nice day