30-01-2003 08:44									#1
	--- POLL --- "ban it or not ?" : "farm under city" trick/bug and Got spare money?

okay

i finally followed blackice's advice and opened a new thread on this

here is the subject:

#1
"farm under city" trick/bug

short :
you can have the city tile infrastructured itself if you time it right.

detailed :
if you build infrastructure beneath a city on the same turn as you found the city, but just before you do, it will be available for the city production once it is done just like the tiles around the city.
infrastructure you build earlier than that on the city square will be deleted by city founding.

#2
"keep under farm" trick/bug

short :
you can cumulatively build different types of infrastructure on a tile if you time it right.

detailed :
similar to no.1, this works with non-ressource infrastructure (sonar, listening post, radar, airport thing, keep).
to do it, build the non-ressource infrastructure and let it be finished (in contrast to #1) before you build the actual infrastructure (farm, mine) on that square. this way you will have both in the end.
if im not mistaken you can even have one tile improvement out of every column in the build menu if you follow the above in the right order.
for example, you could build a keep, a surveillance tower, a farm and a road all on the same tile.


okay, the question is:
should these tricks be generally allowed for PBEM and (probably) MP gaming ?

-----

the discussion started here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...0&pagenumber=15

-----


the current votes:

--- moved to the middle of the thread to a separate post.
look here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...256#post1677625

Last edited by Mathemagician on 30-01-2003 at 22:13

	30-01-2003 08:48									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

and here is a piece of discussion out of the strategy thread. please continue discussion here instead of the previous thread.

quote: Originally posted by blackice While I see your point, my point is exploiting game flaws to "equalize" and or to win games is not exactly what PBEM is all about or MP for that matter. Nor is it in my humble opinion fair gaming. Both tricks as they both exploit game flaws and create an unfair "advantage" or "equalizing".

unfair it only gets when you exploit something that your opponent does not because he doesnt know its there or because it isnt allowed.
but known it is now to anyone who reads this thread.
and whether it should be allowed is what we are currently discussing.

quote: Originally posted by blackice Using hacks, cracks, bugs, cheats and the like just expresses one's desire to win at all cost's. Not one's skill at the game.

again, this applies only if you assume your opponent to not have the knowledge/admittance to use it.
terms like hacks, cracks and cheats though already imply the illegalness, so the sentence is trivially true for these cases.
for bugs/tricks/workarounds it is not so clear.

quote: Originally posted by blackice The hard part here is it is a bug? what then should we do with it.? ... I think we agree it is a bug, most bugs here, if not all? Are banned unless all agree to it's use. I see no reason to treat these bug differently.

huh ? kind of contradicting, sorry.
if so, the reason to allow it would be because it just diversifies your personal options (save PW or go for quicker production), whereas the 'real' bugs usually give 2 options where the non-bug one is clearly the inferior.

quote: Originally posted by blackice So in my tiny vote it is a bug and should be banned unless all agree before the game. Keeping track is easy as we have done it will be stated in the description of the game in the thread of that game for all to see. The main reason for this is I have seen it's use in games and watch as an unfair advantage is taking place... I would suggest any and all players cease it's use until we as a community decide agreed? Just as Birdy suggested. Math It is tradition for the most part that you start a new thread describing the trick and create a poll asking the obvious should it be used or banned unless agreed upon prior to games starting, you up to the task?

yep. did it.

---

summary of my opinion


while the general consensus is that bug exploits should be illegal, i still say:

1.) what is the bug ?
that you CAN build farms (etc) below cities on the same turn as the city
or
that you CANNOT build them earlier on ?
or none at all ?
for example in civilisation (1 at least) it was possible to build infrastructure under your cities. it was even necessary for railroads.

2.) even if we see it as a bug, its not one that really circumvents the basic game rules.
it allows for diversifying your decisions (save PWs ? grow faster ?) without any clearly superior or inferior choice.
i say we should allow it.

	30-01-2003 09:29									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't think issue #2 needs to be banned

	30-01-2003 09:36									#4
	Put an end to popups!

just a note (on my opinion's behalf, granted ) :

out of 5 people im currently playing (quinns, checkMate, Nimrod, david42one, BirdMan), 4 agreed to allow use of this 'bug' (#1) in our game, and the other one (david42one) didnt tell me yet.

just wondering why to ban a thing that eventually gets allowed anyway all the time...

anyway, just manipulating your minds. dont think about it.

	30-01-2003 09:44									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Don't ban - but only to be used if all players in a game accept, that this (I call it feature) might be used during the game.

	30-01-2003 09:46									#6
	Put an end to popups!

yes, i just dont want to have to remember it for each game seperately. that was the point why i wanted a somewhat 'global' decision...

was that a vote, birdie ?

	30-01-2003 09:53									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The poll option is nice, right at the bottom when you create a new thread. This makes for annomous voting and quick referance.

Even in Civilization it was concidered a bug.

It still should be, but again used if clearly stated before a game starts.

Bottom line using a "bug" to enhance one's chances of winning over another is what? Games are based on rules, rules we all follow to make a game an even competion of skill. Let the better player win etc...

Rush buy trick is another example of this, it is a bug yet if all agree to it's use or non use the balanace of skill vs "bug" advantage is elliminated and all players pit skill against skill Let the better player win etc...

Once again I have seen this bug in use and it clearly gives the user an advantage over the non user. Seeing it's use I have seen several not so skilled players beating very skilled players. They are not better they are just using a "bug" to enhance thier chances of winning. And the point of that is?

So they brag " I beat that player I am better than them"
But are they? I say no they learned how to manipulate the playing field to win but they did not beat the other player fair and square on an even playing field. Not at all.

Since it is clear most players did not know of it's use and or the bug itself it created an imbalance of skill vs bug use. Are you really as good as the other player or was the use of this "bug" the reason you won?

If the other player was aware of this bug and you both agreed to use it would you still have won?

All "bugs" etc should be in the rules as banned but usable if all agree. Easy to remember and provides an even playing field for newbies and alike.

Good job Math People like you is why we just keep getting better and growing as a community.

Good Gaming

Black

	30-01-2003 10:00									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

hmm. maybe i could agree on this:

the bug use is not allowed unless all players agree on it, where all agreeing on it is the default option.

please understand me. im just wanting to save my troubled mind from situations like:
"oh damn. in this game with XX im not allowed using it. that was the other game with YY. now i already did it. i have to reload the turn again.... damn !"

	30-01-2003 10:02									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

ah whatever. my bed is already calling me over so softly.

(just the bed ! unfortunately... )

	30-01-2003 11:47									#10
	Got spare money?

#1: ban
#2: don't ban

	30-01-2003 12:30									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician yes, i just dont want to have to remember it for each game seperately. that was the point why i wanted a somewhat 'global' decision... was that a vote, birdie ?

#1: Don't ban.

#2: Don't ban.

	30-01-2003 13:33									#12
	Support Apolyton

1: Ban
2: Don't ban

	30-01-2003 20:24									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

1: Ban
2: Don't ban

	30-01-2003 20:38									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1. Don't ban
2. Don't ban

Both with the proviso that the issue is raised and agreed upon before the begining of a game, at least initially while some players are unaware of the technique.

	30-01-2003 21:12									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

regularly updated
please tell me if i forgot or misinterpreted your vote here.

for simplifying reasons i put this into a seperate post, so it is easier for me to update.
also it looks like poll #1 needs to be adjusted in its available choices.
there will now be the options:

- dont ban at all --> "DONT BAN"
- dont ban if everyone agrees on it before the game
--> "AGREEMENT REQUIRED"
- ban anyway --> "BAN"

where if DONT BAN and AGREEMENT REQUIRED get the majority together it counts as AGREEMENT REQUIRED.
sounds fair doesnt it ?

also, for fairness reasons the trick should be mentioned anyway at the start of a new game if any players participate that you dont know yet.

i'll try to interpret your previous votes as good as i can into the new system. please correct me if im wrong or if you change your votes.


for the logs:
the old intermediate results were these :
the new updated ones are here:

[url]http://apolyton.net/fo...256#post1677625[/URL]

#1
"farm under city" bug/trick

VOTES: 12
BAN: 7 (quinns, david42one, checkmate, blackice, j bytheway, kralj matjaz, solver)
DONT BAN: 5 (maquiladora, mathemagician, troll, birdman, ricketyclik)

#2
"keep under farm" bug/trick

VOTES: 11
BAN: 1 (blackice)
DONT BAN: 10 (mathemagician, troll, checkmate, david42one, birdman, j bytheway, kralj matjaz, solver, ricketyclik, blackice)


NOTE: updated votes here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...256#post1677625

Last edited by Mathemagician on 17-02-2003 at 06:36

	30-01-2003 21:14									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

1: Ban
2: Don't ban

#1 can be used but should be agree by players before start the game, like rush buy,piracy or pillaging.

	30-01-2003 22:11									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

and here is the new updated poll:

starting with berXperts vote im now using the new system.

#1 "farm under city" trick

TOTAL VOTES: 15
BAN: 6
(quinns, blackice, kralj matjaz, j bytheway, solver, nimrod)
AGREEMENT REQUIRED: 5
(birdman, david42one, checkmate, berxpert, ricketyclik)
DONT BAN: 4
(mathemagician, maquiladora, troll, ricketyclik)

#2 "keep under farm" trick

TOTAL VOTES: 14
BAN: 2
(blackice, ricketyclik)
DONT BAN: 12
(mathemagician, troll, checkmate, david42one, birdman, j bytheway, kralj matjaz, solver, berxpert, nimrod, quinns, blackice)


again, please vote everyone !!!

i suggest we close the poll if for 2 days no new vote appears (not counting changed votes). does that sound okay ?

Last edited by Mathemagician on 17-02-2003 at 06:37

	30-01-2003 22:26									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ban the "farm uder city"
Keep the "keep under farm"

Also, if I am not mistaken, it is possible to have a listening post on top of a radar, but a radar can not be placed on top of a listening post. I seem to remember doing this once while playing a single player game.

	30-01-2003 23:33									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

He.k with the radar. It is only usefull in the two smallest sizes of maps (which I don't play if I can avoid it ).

	31-01-2003 02:04									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ban the "build city under public works (on same turn)"
Allow the "public works under public works"

	03-02-2003 15:25									#21
	Suffering from ads?

1. agreement required
2. agreement required

	03-02-2003 22:27									#22
	Tired of ads?

sorry rickety,
but i dont want to insert a third option ("AGREEMENT REQUIRED") for the second issue so far, so i interpreted your second vote as 'BAN' for now.

Last edited by Mathemagician on 03-02-2003 at 22:33

	17-02-2003 06:31									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ok 1 is a bug and banned 2 is ok good job Math any more tricks?/

Solver, Keygen could you add this to the official thread?

	17-02-2003 06:40									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

okay, we have waited long enough i assume.
including blackice's updated vote, these are the final results:

#1 "farm under city" trick

TOTAL VOTES: 15
BAN: 6
(quinns, blackice, kralj matjaz, j bytheway, solver, nimrod)
AGREEMENT REQUIRED: 5
(birdman, david42one, checkmate, berxpert, ricketyclik)
DONT BAN: 4
(mathemagician, maquiladora, troll, ricketyclik)

#2 "keep under farm" trick

TOTAL VOTES: 14
BAN: 2
(blackice, ricketyclik)
DONT BAN: 12
(mathemagician, troll, checkmate, david42one, birdman, j bytheway, kralj matjaz, solver, berxpert, nimrod, quinns, blackice)

issue 2 is pretty obvious. we dont ban it.
as for issue 1, i'd say we allow it if the topic is raised at the start of the game and everyone agrees to use.
just what most people already said.

well,
much noise for nothing as we say in germany.

	17-02-2003 14:57									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just to set the record straight, I originally said agreement for "keep under farm" which was assumed to equal ban, but given the ban/not ban choice, I would say not ban.

Got that straight everyone?

	17-02-2003 17:04									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

yep, ricketyclik, i also responded to that in a post saying i'd rather not insert a third option, since it would have been much work and things were pretty clear anyway.

	17-02-2003 19:16									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

1 ban
2 not ban

what about planting forest in place where to city build?
i say yes

	17-02-2003 21:18									#28
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

well, mieciofok's vote doesnt change anything anymore and the poll was over anyway, so i dont include it anymore (mainly because im too lazy )
the result is:

#1 agreement required
#2 dont ban

thanks for voting everyone.

mieciofok,

shall we agree to use #1 in our upcoming game ?

	17-02-2003 22:19									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

i prefer not

	17-02-2003 22:25									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Solver, Keygen could you add this to the official thread?

Uh huh, what official thread?