02-02-2003 03:51									#361
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quote: Originally posted by Kull The lure of space travel captures the imagination and is deeply embedded in the hopes and dreams of millions of people around the world. It is the polar opposite of the curses that divide the people of this planet - tribalism, nationalism, and fanatacisms of every stripe. And maybe that's the fundamental draw of space travel - the belief, however illusory - that someday we can leave this place and all it's problems far behind. So when we lose these voyagers it strikes us where we hurt the most - in our dreams.

Would you shed a tear when an unmanned multi-billion dollar project explodes on the launch pad? There was no public mourning over the loss of an Ariane launch a few months ago.

It is the fact that people were on board that is by far the most important aspect. And yes, people do die all the time, needlessly. That is the greater tragedy, that they are ignored.

	02-02-2003 03:53									#362
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What could they have done about it?

Fixed it. Or, just leave it there.

	02-02-2003 03:56									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba They are saying that a piece of insulating foam was what had fallen off during Columbia's flight out. It did hit the left wing, which is where the first signs of trouble started by its heat sensors no longer responding. This could have serious implications for NASA, in that it would be a case of negligence, either intentional or unintentional, because they did know something came off the vehicle during its outbound flight.

they reviewed the video of the launch, and with their various experts determined that the debris incident wasn't a safety concern. other incidents with the foam impacting parts of the orbiter and boosters apparently only caused superficial damage

	02-02-2003 04:12									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Would you shed a tear when an unmanned multi-billion dollar project explodes on the launch pad? There was no public mourning over the loss of an Ariane launch a few months ago. It is the fact that people were on board that is by far the most important aspect. And yes, people do die all the time, needlessly. That is the greater tragedy, that they are ignored.

our dreams

Is there a particular reason you are trying to appear obtuse, BC?

	02-02-2003 04:15									#365
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Good entrance, NYE, and good luck tryin' to get the point across.

-=Vel=-

	02-02-2003 04:15									#366
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Dreams are shattered everyday, I live in reality.

	02-02-2003 04:20									#367
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Okay Big C....try this one on for size.

Yep...here in the real world, it's true. Lots of people die every day, and their deaths are largely ignored.

That's very sad.

It's also true that we don't have cameras rolling in every nook and cranny of the world, covering the lives and deaths of those masses whose stories (and deaths) are going untold.

Should we?

That way we can properly mourn each and every tragedy as it happens, yes?

The fact is....these were among our best and brightest minds, pushing back the boundaries through fearless exploration of the unknown.

When they flew, they carried with them the hopes and dreams of millions who awaited their safe return to the earth.

They never made it, and when their lives ended, it was more than "just a death." It was that, and that by itself would have been tragic. But there's more to the story.

Part of the symbol they represented ALSO died. They were living representatives of something larger than any of them individually. Something that millions of people hold dear.

-=Vel=-

	02-02-2003 04:29									#368
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It's called reverence. Big C may not have any, or he isn't in touch with it.

	02-02-2003 04:31									#369
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Maybe it's time we stopped feeding Big Crunch's ploy for attention and just discuss the tragedy.

	02-02-2003 04:34									#370
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Big Crunch:

You're weird, I'll give you that much.

Gatekeeper

	02-02-2003 04:34									#371
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Dreams are shattered everyday, I live in reality.

Ahh. You have no dreams of your own, so you attempt to convince others of the superiority of your situation. I see. Carry on.

	02-02-2003 04:35									#372
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I regret the loss of those lives. I regret the setback to science and the space programme.

I just see greater tragedies out there in the world.

	02-02-2003 04:38									#373
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quote: STS107-S-001 (May 2001) --- This is the insignia for STS-107, which is a multi-discipline microgravity and Earth science research mission with a multitude of international scientific investigations conducted continuously during the planned 16 days on orbit. The central element of the patch is the microgravity symbol, µg, flowing into the rays of the astronaut symbol. The mission inclination is portrayed by the 39 degree angle of the astronaut symbol to the Earth's horizon. The sunrise is representative of the numerous experiments that are the dawn of a new era for continued microgravity research on the International Space Station and beyond. The breadth of science conducted on this mission will have widespread benefits to life on Earth and our continued exploration of space illustrated by the Earth and stars. The constellation Columba (the dove) was chosen to symbolize peace on Earth and the Space Shuttle Columbia. The seven stars also represent the mission crew members and honor the original astronauts who paved the way to make research in space possible. The Israeli flag is adjacent to the name of the payload specialist who is the first person from that country to fly on the Space Shuttle. The NASA insignia design for Shuttle flights is reserved for use by the astronauts and for other official use as the NASA Administrator may authorize. Public availability has been approved only in the form of illustrations by the various news media. When and if there is any change in this policy, which is not anticipated, it will be publicly announced.

	02-02-2003 04:39									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I just see greater tragedies out there in the world.

OK. So people are to run these things by you first to get the measurement of where an event fits on the BC tragedy scale, then they can commence mourning properly. A little full of ourselves today, yes?

	02-02-2003 04:40									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I regret the loss of those lives. I regret the setback to science and the space programme. I just see greater tragedies out there in the world.

But this thread is about this specific tragedy. That was its purpose. To come in here and kvetch about it is either thoughtlessness or attention-seeking, and I'd wager a bit of both are involved. If you don't deem it worthy of your interest, go somewhere else and leave those who do care about it alone.

	02-02-2003 04:42									#376
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither OK. So people are to run these things by you first to get the measurement of where an event fits on the BC tragedy scale, then they can commence mourning properly. A little full of ourselves today, yes?

People can do what they like. Am I not allowed to make my opinion known?

	02-02-2003 04:45									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov But this thread is about this specific tragedy. That was its purpose. To come in here and kvetch about it is either thoughtlessness or attention-seeking, and I'd wager a bit of both are involved. If you don't deem it worthy of your interest, go somewhere else and leave those who do care about it alone.

I am responding to specific comments made at me, am I supposed to ignore them?

	02-02-2003 04:46									#378
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Big Crunch is trying to be deep.

He isn't succeeding.

	02-02-2003 04:51									#379
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I am responding to specific comments made at me, am I supposed to ignore them?

Those comments were in response to your own thoughtless post.

Look, next time you have a loved one die, I will show up at the funeral and say, "Get a grip, people! It's just one person! People die every day, why is this so sad? Stop yer crying!" We'll see how well that goes over.

Blind cynicism is not a pretty trait.

	02-02-2003 04:52									#380
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Big crunch, do you also do this to private people?

I mean, do you come to, say, funerals, and tell people "hey, there are thousands of people starving in africa! stop crying!" and demand that all the people that came except the immediate family leave?

	02-02-2003 05:05									#381
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper As someone on another board stated eloquently, humanity's collective IQ declined today with the deaths of the Columbia crew. Gatekeeper

If this is all that matters, then we can more than compensate by offing Bush.

	02-02-2003 05:09									#382
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If this is all that matters, then we can more than compensate by offing Bush.

Enough of this crap... There are more than enough threads to bash Bush...

Enough of the personal crap as well... stay on topic and stop the personal insults.

	02-02-2003 05:11									#383
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hi ,

Siro , special report on cnn , "Columbia a tragedy" at 0300 our time

have a nice day


and guys can we please leave the personal remarks

	02-02-2003 05:13									#384
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Most deaths are incredibly mundane affairs. These people were taking incredible risks to contribute to the fund of human knowledge. My own feelings are similar to those of the astronauts - it's sad, but those are the risks, and we devalue what the dead stood for if we don't realise that they thought the risk was worth it - they were willing to pay the price to help humankind; most aren't - we should admire them for that.

While in some respect it is true that all deaths are the same, there are surely some that are more poignant than others. For example, the death of Scott and his party was an heroic death. Kennedy's assassination was the death of one person, but meant more to people because of the circumstances. The murders of Ghandi, Allende, Che Guevara and Bishop Romero were more significant than most other murders given who they were the circumstances. Ditto for the massacres at Wachita and Glencoe.

It's not the deaths themselves, but the circumstances and context that make the difference.

	02-02-2003 05:17									#385
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Enough of the personal crap as well... stay on topic and stop the personal insults.

Couldn't resist the Bush one, sorry. It was like a ripe fruit waiting to be plucked. Bad me.

What personal crap? I didn't get at anyone other than GWB and he doesn't post here to my knowledge.

	02-02-2003 05:20									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What personal crap? I didn't get at anyone other than GWB and he doesn't post here to my knowledge.

The Bush comment was aimed at you... the personal crap comment was aimed at other people... AND THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE

Now get back on topic.

	02-02-2003 05:30									#387
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As I was saying....

Space exploration is one area of human endeavour where most of us have an interest. The ISS is a good example of this. I'd wager that the Russian and Western scientists were kind of relieved to get the Cold War trash out of the way so that they could get on with being scientists - after all the disinterested inquiry of science is necessarily a collective enterprise which all its true adherents want to succeed independently of national allegiances - so this affects everyone who cares about the advancement of human knowledge (like me).

Having said that, I can understand the Americans and the Israelis have additional reasons for grieving.

	02-02-2003 05:33									#388
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Some of my own thoughts about the crash: I'm old enough to remember seeing Colombia's first landing on live television in school back in 1981. I have also seen Endevour take off on site at Cape Canaveral. It was a night launch, pretty cool sight.

Of course I feel sorry for the victims of the accident, but not more than I would for the victims of a local bus crash. After all, the Astronauts volonteered for a mission they knew to be dangerous. I feel more sorry for the space program as such and the delays this will bring.

quote: Lousy cheapskate Budget. If the Bushites hadn't frozen Nasa's budget then the ISS would actually be worth something these days. ..

Cutting funds to the great scientific space program makes sense in a country where it is not only fully legal, but as I heard quite common, by school teachers to refuse or ignore teaching the Theory of Evolution. Furthermore this same country is still playing around with the obsolete pounds, gallons and inches, while the rest of the world have adapted the metric system. The conservative Christians who voted Bush must be celebrating now when Scientific progress is taking a step backward. Perhaps they dont dance like they according to rumours do in Gaza, but anyway...

At the same time, how much money are spent on a missile-defense system that won't stop the only realistic nuclear treat anyway, which is a small bomb smuggled in by boat or similar means and planted in place (like spy mission "plant nuke" in CIV2). Why not transfer some money from building rockets that's not needed to building rockets that the whole world want?

Don't get me wrong here, I do not hate Americans or something like that just because I bash some general features of US and the politics of the current government...

About the conspiracy theories (act of God, terrorists, airplane seen close by etc): Yeah Right, space terrorists! How long before we hear the "Act of Alien" theory?

About the Jewish angle to this: What about the Indian angle? Are the Pakistanis celebrating like the Palestinians, now that an Indian astronaut died?

	02-02-2003 05:42									#389
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The conservative Christians who voted Bush must be celebrating now when Scientific progress is taking a step backward.

You have some weird opinions. Does the EU spend so much money rolling the dice on great scientific progress? Does the EU have a large portion of christian conservatives?

Even removing military R&D, the US spends more than the EU on science as a %-age of the economy. I wonder what basis you think you have to criticize.

Last edited by DanS on 02-02-2003 at 06:00

	02-02-2003 05:49									#390
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Thank God they dont.