02-02-2003 02:13									#331
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What happened to Enterprise?

	02-02-2003 02:14									#332
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Yeah, but for several minutes they knew they were going to die by explosion. Probably horror.

	02-02-2003 02:14									#333
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Oh give me a ****ing break!
These dumbass journalists are really annoying me. The question one of them just asked at a press conference I'm watching: "Can you tell us the last words of the crew on the shuttle?"

	02-02-2003 02:15									#334
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I thought enterprise was very very very old....

Wasn't it like.. in the 60s?

	02-02-2003 02:17									#335
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You know... For the past 7 hours I've been sitting here, with the headphones on switching between TV channels, switching between obscure Texan radio channels, reading every last bit of information in dozens of reports in three languages, periodically checking roughly 10 forums for more and only now it hit me. Another shuttle is gone.

	02-02-2003 02:17									#336
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damnit... every day thousands die in car accidents, of hunger and illness, in wars, etc. and now make such a fuss about 7 people.

i know, it's a shame to lose good and intelligent human lives. but come on... some of you guys just don't see the big picture...

	02-02-2003 02:18									#337
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What happened to Enterprise?

It was an experimental vehicle. Only for takeoffs and landings IIRC, it never reached orbit.

Edit : "Enterprise is the first space shuttle. ... The orbiter was only a test vehicle that was used for landing tests and is not able to fly in space."

	02-02-2003 02:25									#338
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My deepest sympathy and condolences to the families of the seven lost pioneers, to NASA and to the people of America and Israel.

I am one of many who have followed manned space missions with the greatest interest since early childhood, and the news of the loss of Columbia is emotionally devastating to me.

This is a tragedy for the hopes and aspirations of an entire generation, but I'm confident that eventually the US and NASA will overcome this grave adversity also.

	02-02-2003 02:26									#339
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf damnit... every day thousands die in car accidents, of hunger and illness, in wars, etc. and now make such a fuss about 7 people. i know, it's a shame to lose good and intelligent human lives. but come on... some of you guys just don't see the big picture...

... nor apparently do you. See the big picture, that is.

It is a set back for the space program. That is a set back for everyone on this planet, whether they are aware of it or not.

	02-02-2003 02:26									#340
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf i know, it's a shame to lose good and intelligent human lives. but come on... some of you guys just don't see the big picture...

It's seven people who died in front of the eyes of the world. Do you not think that when you see people die in real life that you get freaked out? I saw a major accident in Chicago where an old woman ran a red light and hit fourteen people, at least three of whom died. I couldn't think straight for at least a day.

	02-02-2003 02:35									#341
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's seven people who died in front of the eyes of the world. Do you not think that when you see people die in real life that you get freaked out? I saw a major accident in Chicago where an old woman ran a red light and hit fourteen people, at least three of whom died. I couldn't think straight for at least a day.

no, it's not nice.
but that doesn't change anything.

i still think THINKING of 200 dead on bali is worse that SEEING 7 dead on TV. and actually you didn't see them at all. you just saw 1 shiny glowing object break up in 5-6 pieces.

the worst i saw was a porsche speed round a corner and when i came a minute later to that corner it turned out the car had smashed into a group of people waiting at a bus stop. two little kids (2 and 4 years) were dead, their mother and 2 other people seriously injured.

that was a horrible sight and thought, but i still see the proportions.

	02-02-2003 02:36									#342
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People dying is people dying.

	02-02-2003 02:39									#343
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither ... nor apparently do you. See the big picture, that is. It is a set back for the space program. That is a set back for everyone on this planet, whether they are aware of it or not.

well, i didn't dare to say anything about the materialistic side.
the IIS schedule will take approx. 1-2 years longer now.

but life is generally considered more important than science.

	02-02-2003 02:44									#344
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Aww shit!

Lousy cheapskate Budget. If the Bushites hadn't frozen Nasa's budget then the ISS would actually be worth something these days. Any way its not a time to score political points.

Whats interesting is that it was after the fire and brimstone part of reentry that it fell apart. No idea what could have caused it though. Most likely structural weakness.

I saw the damn Columbia go up in 1996, from the Press box nearest to the Launch (far away).

Such a shame, condolences to the families concerned.

	02-02-2003 02:45									#345
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quote: Those people didn't want to die like that today, but if your time was today then that was a fine and noble a way to go and today such a pretty day in Texas...

indeed, best weather today than we've had in weeks... *sigh*

quote: I am one of many who have followed manned space missions with the greatest interest since early childhood, and the news of the loss of Columbia is emotionally devastating to me.

same here

	02-02-2003 02:47									#346
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but life is generally considered more important than science.

Nobody is making the comparison you're making. It's a loss of life + science + hope/dreams + momentum + money. It's a tragedy for all of these things put together.

	02-02-2003 02:54									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil Whats interesting is that it was after the fire and brimstone part of reentry that it fell apart. No idea what could have caused it though. Most likely structural weakness.

according to one of the NASA guys on the NASA TV briefing that i'm streaming, the shuttle was at peak re-entry temperatures at the time of the communications loss

	02-02-2003 02:57									#348
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In their tens of thousands, people die every day. It's the natural order of things, and it's something most of us deal with by ignoring it. But for me and many others, there will always be something different about disasters like this.

The lure of space travel captures the imagination and is deeply embedded in the hopes and dreams of millions of people around the world. It is the polar opposite of the curses that divide the people of this planet - tribalism, nationalism, and fanatacisms of every stripe. And maybe that's the fundamental draw of space travel - the belief, however illusory - that someday we can leave this place and all it's problems far behind.

So when we lose these voyagers it strikes us where we hurt the most - in our dreams.

	02-02-2003 02:58									#349
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Thank you, Kull....and well said.

-=Vel=-

	02-02-2003 02:59									#350
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Not at 5 minutes before landing. It would have broken through the Ionization barrier and be cooling down. Albeit the heat could still have caused it.

	02-02-2003 03:08									#351
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Columbia was doing roll reversals at the time, and the event didn't occur 5 minutes prior to landing

	02-02-2003 03:12									#352
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Didn't it?

My bad!
I'm supposed to be compiling something for the Paper on Monday, watch out for factual inaccuracies.

On another note, should I get rid of the giant poster of Columbia in my bedroom?

	02-02-2003 03:12									#353
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They are saying that a piece of insulating foam was what had fallen off during Columbia's flight out. It did hit the left wing, which is where the first signs of trouble started by its heat sensors no longer responding.

This could have serious implications for NASA, in that it would be a case of negligence, either intentional or unintentional, because they did know something came off the vehicle during its outbound flight.

	02-02-2003 03:14									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba This could have serious implications for NASA, in that it would be a case of negligence, either intentional or unintentional, because they did know something came off the vehicle during its outbound flight.

What could they have done about it?

	02-02-2003 03:16									#355
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Not launch in cold weather conditions maybe?

	02-02-2003 03:16									#356
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ILAN RAMON (COLONEL, ISRAEL AIR FORCE)
PAYLOAD SPECIALIST

PERSONAL DATA: Forty-eight years old, born June 20,1954 in Tel Aviv, Israel. Married to Rona. They have four children. He enjoys snow skiing, squash. His parents reside in Beer Sheva, Israel.

EDUCATION: Graduated from High School in 1972; bachelor of science degree in electronics and computer engineering from the University of Tel Aviv, Israel, in 1987.

SPECIAL HONORS/AWARDS: Yom Kippur War (1973); Operation Peace for Galilee (1982); F-16 1,000 Flight Hours (1992).

EXPERIENCE: In 1974, Ramon graduated as a fighter pilot from the Israel Air Force (IAF) Flight School. From 1974-1976 he participated in A-4 Basic Training and Operations. 1976-1980 was spent in Mirage III-C training and operations. In 1980, as one of the IAF's establishment team of the first F-16 Squadron in Israel, he attended the F-16 Training Course at Hill Air Force Base, Utah. From 1981-1983, he served as the Deputy Squadron Commander B, F-16 Squadron. From 1983-1987, he attended the University of Tel Aviv. From 1988-1990, he served as Deputy Squadron Commander A, F-4 Phantom Squadron. During 1990, he attended the Squadron Commanders Course. From 1990-1992, he served as Squadron Commander, F-16 Squadron. From 1992-1994, he was Head of the Aircraft Branch in the Operations Requirement Department. In 1994, he was promoted to the rank of Colonel and assigned as Head of the Department of Operational Requirement for Weapon Development and Acquisition. He stayed at this post until 1998.

Colonel Ramon has accumulated over 3,000 flight hours on the A-4, Mirage III-C, and F-4, and over 1,000 flight hours on the F-16.

NASA EXPERIENCE: In 1997, Colonel Ramon was selected as a Payload Specialist. He is designated to train as prime for a Space Shuttle mission with a payload that includes a multispectral camera for recording desert aerosol. In July 1998, he reported for training at the Johnson Space Center, Houston. He is currently assigned to STS-107 scheduled to launch in 2003.

	02-02-2003 03:17									#357
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The seven people who died were also among the planet's *foremost* scientists — after all, this was a scientific mission. As someone on another board stated eloquently, humanity's collective IQ declined today with the deaths of the Columbia crew.

Gatekeeper

	02-02-2003 03:21									#358
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What could they have done about it?

I bet they find a way to deal with THAT question for future shuttle missions.

But from the way they are talking on the news (plus from what has been said before and what has been seen to happen with those heat tiles), every shuttle mission seems to be a gamble anyhow- the tiles can't be replaced in space, and there have been incidents in the infancy of the shuttle program with those tiles coming off.

But we don't even know if any of this is the cause anyhow, so maybe I'm just way off base.

	02-02-2003 03:27									#359
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I recognize that people die every day. Lots of people... And some of them die in ways more horrible than the shuttle astronauts probably did (some die for daysand longer, slowly). But there is a visibility consideration, and the matter of choice.

I keep in my thoughts all the time that some people are starving in some places, that some people are terrorized and tortured, that some people don't have medical treatment to cure diseases or even relieve pain. But I can't help them directly, nor can I prevent all human sufferring.

But there *is* a distinction. Those astronauts walked out of safe comfortable lives to dare death and pain when they could have avoided the danger. That means something. The children who died of starvation today and those astronauts are all equally dead, but the astronauts had a positive purpose and had the choice to risk death or stay safely at their homes.

Both kinds of deaths are tragic and sad, but it is not unreasonable to focus on the publicized deaths today and remember the other deaths all the other days.

	02-02-2003 03:38									#360
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What could they have done about it?

It is not possible to account for all possible failures. Sometimes, the only way to discover a problem is to see it happen. The history of humankind is, in some ways, an inventory of discovered errors and the attempts to correct them. As sad as this event is, it is only one of so very very many failures that lead to new knowledge. *sigh*