04-02-2003 14:56									#121
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Just a small point, but if the shuttle's angle of attack is with the left side of the shuttle into the wind, the temperature on the left side of the main fuselage would be expected to rise.

It did, beginning over California.

I was reading up on the attitude control systems of the shuttle during re-entry. Until the shuttle reaches Mach 3, the shuttle relies on three IMU's located in the crew bay. They are very temperature sensitive.

	04-02-2003 15:00									#122
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MtG:
I didn't think there was anything on the ISS for that.

They tried to do some shots of the shuttle from ground based stuff 5 years ago, and the pictures were nowhere near good enough to resolve the sort of damage we seem to be talking about here, assuming it was the launch that was the problem.

The latest from NASA seems to show an increase in temperature that is not consistent with what is expected should this have been caused by damaged wing tiles during launch. Could be a strike during re-entry, then...in which case none of this speculation is worth anything.

	04-02-2003 15:01									#123
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The shuttle was in the throws of attempting to decelerate, which it does by pitching and yawing, increasing the drag on one side then the other...so the footage seems to match what they thought was going on on the ground...at least from what I've been reading the past couple of days.

	04-02-2003 21:32									#124
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Tolls, So if there was damage to the left side, they should have stopped yawing to the right so as to protect the left side.

	04-02-2003 21:43									#125
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The whole point of those manouevres is to slow down the shuttle...without them they would (I assume) quite seriously overshoot the runway, and also the shuttle would be under longer heatstress (it would take longer to slow down).

And all this is under the assumption that the damage was then viewed as somehow serious which was not the case.

	04-02-2003 21:49									#126
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They found the nose cone.
I'm still amazed at what has actually been found.

	04-02-2003 22:19									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, It happened, that's all I know.

To clarify, you're strange for thinking your waking up then means anything, not for waking up at that point.

	05-02-2003 02:08									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov To clarify, you're strange for thinking your waking up then means anything, not for waking up at that point.

Boris, I have had enough "strange" experiences in my life to give credence to the possiblity that humans can communicated with one another telepathically.

Just as a point of reference, NASA now says that the shuttle's first's anomoly occurred at 5:52 when the tiire hydraulic temperature sensors shows a temperature spike. This is the exact time I woke up and looked at the clock.

	05-02-2003 02:12									#129
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BTW, I had heard that Ilan Ramon had taken picture of Earth from the orbiter. The picture reportedly shows a wing with a crack and a dent on its leading edge.

Has anyone else seen this picture? Link?

	05-02-2003 04:19									#130
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surely not

	05-02-2003 05:10									#131
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/...tion/index.html

It seems to me this is a serious design problem. How are they going to correct this?

Perhaps they can design the external tank in some way to prevent things from falling off of it. If they cannot do that they have a serious problem on their hands.

	05-02-2003 07:21									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/...tion/index.html It seems to me this is a serious design problem. How are they going to correct this? Perhaps they can design the external tank in some way to prevent things from falling off of it. If they cannot do that they have a serious problem on their hands.

In retrospect, there is a lot about the space shuttle that seem to be a design flaw. The shuttle needs to use its main engines to boost into orbit. This requires it to be strapped onto the side of the SRB's and the main fuel tank. It appears now that there have been a number of incidents where debris from the SRB's or the fuel tank, inlcuding ice, have fallen onto the orbiter. Given the fragility of the orbiter's TPS, one would think that any ability for debris to hit the orbiter is a design flaw. Since debris cannot be eliminated, it may require the shuttle to be grounded permanently.

	05-02-2003 07:44									#133
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of course we can't ground the shuttle permantly.

So it will be interesting to see what they do.

	05-02-2003 08:18									#134
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Only in America would the pilot be named Willie McCool.

	05-02-2003 09:34									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, I have had enough "strange" experiences in my life to give credence to the possiblity that humans can communicated with one another telepathically. Just as a point of reference, NASA now says that the shuttle's first's anomoly occurred at 5:52 when the tiire hydraulic temperature sensors shows a temperature spike. This is the exact time I woke up and looked at the clock.

Oooooh well then!

First, there's no way of knowing if your clock is syncronized with the NASA clock. It could have been off by several minutes. So maybe you actually looked at the clock at 5:49 NASA time or 5:56.

Second, there are probably about 35 million people in California. Given there are only 720 minutes in a morning, on average about 49,000 people wake up there every minute of every morning. OK, subtract the graveyard shift folks, but still...

It was a coincidence. I just looked at my computer clock, and it said 11:40 PM. Now that was the exact time the Titanic struck the iceberg, and I'm a Titanic buff...must be some sort of psychic occurance!

Or a coincidence.

	05-02-2003 09:40									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Only in America would the pilot be named Willie McCool.

woah... this is true

	05-02-2003 10:15									#137
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Boris, I just checked. The clock is 30 seconds late. But NASA said the shuttle entered California at 5:51 just above San Francisco and was over San Jose at 5:52.

But, you are right. There are seven million people in the area. Quite a few probably woke up just when the shuttle passed overhead.

I only wish now that I had known the shuttle would be passing overhead just then. I would have rushed outside and taken a look.

	05-02-2003 10:20									#138
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On the design flaw - the following story shows that the problem is virtually insoluble. I am willing to bet that the odds that the shuttle never flies again are not insignificant.

SPACE CENTER, Houston (AP) - NASA was warned nine years ago that the space shuttle could fail catastrophically if debris hit the vulnerable underside of its wings during liftoff - the very scenario that may have brought down Columbia.

After receiving the warning, NASA made changes in materials and flight rules to lessen the risk of debris breaking loose, Paul Fischbeck, an engineering professor at Carnegie Mellon University who conducted the 1994 analysis, said Tuesday.

"There are very important tiles under there. If you lose the tiles on those stretches ... it can cause the shuttle to be lost," he said.

The underside of the left wing is where NASA is focusing its investigation into Saturday's disaster, which killed seven astronauts.


A spokesman at NASA's Johnson Space Center, David Drachlis, said Tuesday night that no one was available to comment on the report.

Also Tuesday, the space agency sent teams to check out reports of shuttle debris found as far west as California and Arizona - material that could shed light on the earliest stages of Columbia's breakup. And investigators also are getting new military images of the spacecraft's fiery, dying streak across the country from an Apache helicopter.

Fischbeck and a colleague at Stanford University studied the damage caused by debris during the first 50 shuttle launches and concluded that on average, 25 thermal tiles per flight sustained damage of at least one inch.

He said his risk analysis showed that the most vulnerable spots on the shuttle were the undersides of both wings close to the fuselage, and right under the crew compartment. To reach that conclusion, he weighed three factors: which tiles were most likely to be hit by debris, which tiles endured a lot of heat on atmospheric re-entry, and which tiles had critical systems underneath them.

It is not clear exactly where under the wing Columbia was hit, but just before the shuttle break up, temperature spikes were detected around the left wheel well, which is close to the fuselage, and on the left side of the fuselage itself.

Fischbeck said NASA "took a lot of our advice to heart" and made improvements such as changing the foam insulation on the top of the booster rockets and allowing less ice to be present on the fuel tanks before liftoff. Ice forms on the tank because of the super-cold liquid hydrogen and oxygen inside.

The investigation into the Columbia disaster is focusing on the possibility that a 2 1/2-pound, 20-inch chunk of foam insulation from the shuttle's external fuel tank fell off during liftoff and hit the left underside of the wing, causing damage to the thermal tiles that doomed the ship.

Fischbeck stressed that no one knows with absolute certainty yet whether the debris brought down Columbia or where precisely that debris hit.

"There's risk associated with any engineered system, whether it be your school bus or a double-hull tanker or whether it be the space shuttle. There's always a combination of events that can lead to an accident," he said. "You cannot make things risk-free."

He added that in this case, the question is: "Did they do all they should have done?"

Fischbeck's report looked at damage to the tiles from the insulating foam on the external fuel tank and the booster rockets, as well as from ice. He found that there was a greater likelihood of the right side of the shuttle being hit than the left; he put the odds at about 60-40.

He said while the tiles under the right wing had a slightly higher likelihood of being struck, "if the ones under the left wing were hit, then they were equally damaging to the orbiter."

Fischbeck said during the first 50 shuttle flights, from 1981 through 1992, the damage per flight ranged from three tiles to 150 tiles.

The foam and the tiles have been a source of concern at NASA practically from the start.

Over the years, foam insulation often damaged the tiles. In fact, soon after NASA stopped using Freon in the foam, for environmental reasons, Columbia sustained significant tile damage during a 1997 liftoff because of flyaway foam, according to a report by NASA engineer Gregory Katnik.

Katnik raised the possibility at the time that the new foam concoction was not compatible with the severe conditions of takeoff. The foam recipe apparently was altered somewhat after the 1997 incident.

"The thing of this is, almost since Day One, the insulation has been a pain. Pieces break off," said Seymour Himmel, a retired NASA executive who served two decades on an aerospace safety panel and looked into the potential dangers of the foam.

While the foam is a lightweight, polyurethane, spray-on material that goes on like shaving cream, it hardens like styrofoam. And given the speed at which shuttles hurtle into space during takeoff, it can have a devastating effect. Moreover, the black, silica glass fiber tiles that cover the belly of the shuttle are famously fragile, so much so that even a bump or nudge can cause cracks or dings.

NASA has said that during Columbia's mission, its engineers carefully analyzed the potential damage done by the foam and concluded that the crew was in no danger.

On Monday, Michael Kostelnik, deputy associate administrator for spaceflight, said that the chunk that fell from the tank and hit Columbia's tiles was "probably the largest piece we've had" of any shuttle mission.


(AP) American flags and flowers mark the site of a piece of debris from space shuttle Columbia near...
Full Image

Kostelnik noted repeated attempts to fix the foam problem. "There's been a lot of activity and a lot of focus on the foam in particular and how to attach it, so this has been a continuing effort," he said.

Even some of the pros have trouble accepting the notion that foam could have caused the catastrophe.

"I am absolutely stunned," said astronaut Mike Mullane, who rode Atlantis into orbit in 1988. "I can see it scratching or even gouging a couple of tiles. But God, the idea that it could compromise the system. I don't know, but I just have a hard time believing that."

He recalled that a tip of one of his booster rockets broke off during launch and slammed into the belly of the shuttle, damaging a few hundred tiles. One came off entirely. Yet Atlantis and its crew of five still made it safely home.

Some of the broken-off pieces of insulation, ranging from flecks to chunks, hit the shuttle and usually do nothing more than ding or scratch the tiles. Some miss the shuttle altogether.

The foam has undergone "a continuing series of process changes, both in terms of how you apply it and where you apply it, under which conditions, as well as the materials," Himmel said.

Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) makes the 154-foot fuel tanks, but a long list of subcontractors provide the foam and its ingredients. The silica tiles on the shuttle's belly were developed and manufactured by Lockheed.

The tiles protect shuttles against the searing heat of atmospheric re-entry. If some are missing in an especially vulnerable area, it could set off a chain reaction that could destroy the shuttle.

Shuttles almost always return to Earth with marred or missing tiles, the result of debris smacking into them during liftoff.

Himmel said he and other members of the Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel, created after the deadly 1967 Apollo spacecraft fire, never included in their reports any reservations about the vulnerability of the thousands of tiles that cover shuttles.

"It was so well-known, it would have been superfluous to say, 'If you lose a lot of tiles, you've bought the farm,'" Himmel said.

Retired aerospace engineer Tom McKeever used to see the tiles damaged all the time. "The whole tile situation has been not only fragile in concept, but I believe somewhat fragile in design," he said.

During Columbia's launch last month, it is possible that the foam was coated with ice. That would have made it a more dangerous projectile. Shuttle program manager Ron Dittemore said he hopes to know about ice by the end of the week.

During the launch, the strip of foam peeled away from the tank 81 seconds into the flight. The shuttle was traveling at 2 1/2 times the speed of sound at the time, or just over 1,900 mph.

	05-02-2003 15:45									#139
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"I am willing to bet that the odds that the shuttle never flies again are not insignificant."

That would be ridiculous!
We have one loss...ONE from this problem in over 100 flights, of a still new (relatively in flight terms) craft, and you want to ground it?

Bloody hell...we'd never have got off the ground with that attitude.

The shuttle will be back flying before the year's out, possibly even in the summer (if we're lucky)...what needs to be done now is further work on its replacement.

As for the picture of the left wing...it is not of the left wing, but seems to be part of the cargo bay doors. You couldn't get a shot of the wing from anywhere in the shuttle.

	05-02-2003 16:04									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls "I am willing to bet that the odds that the shuttle never flies again are not insignificant." That would be ridiculous! We have one loss...ONE from this problem in over 100 flights, of a still new (relatively in flight terms) craft, and you want to ground it? Bloody hell...we'd never have got off the ground with that attitude. The shuttle will be back flying before the year's out, possibly even in the summer (if we're lucky)...what needs to be done now is further work on its replacement. As for the picture of the left wing...it is not of the left wing, but seems to be part of the cargo bay doors. You couldn't get a shot of the wing from anywhere in the shuttle.

hi ,

last time they build a new one , ..... they shall either build a new one of the same model or get a new model , ..... one thing is for sure , they shall go back up no matter what , ...... (!)

have a nice day

	05-02-2003 16:04									#141
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Israel to Ask for Another Space Trip

Israel will be asking the U.S. to approve the training of another Israeli astronaut, the JERUSALEM POST reported. It is still not certain when the request will be made, though it could come up as early as today when President George W. Bush is scheduled to receive the family of Ilan Ramon, the Israeli astronaut who went down aboard the Columbia space shuttle on Saturday. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon pledged Sunday that other Israeli astronauts will be launched into space. "Their deaths were not in vain. Man's journey into space will continue. Cooperation between the United States and Israel in this field will also continue and a day will come when we will launch more Israeli astronauts into space," Sharon said on Sunday during a brief ceremony.
Nearly 2,000 people gathered at the synagogue Beth Yeshurun in Houston on Monday for a memorial service in honor of Ilan Ramon. Daniel Ayalon, Israel's Ambassador to the Washington, D.C., attended the service. Commenting on Ramon's influence on Israeli society, Ayalon said: "Ilan Ramon is a national hero who possessed a very strong identity as a Jew, as an Israeli. I think his personal story embodies the true triumph of the Jewish people."


hi ,

the above is intresting , ......

have a nice day

	05-02-2003 16:08									#142
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"Their deaths were not in vain. Man's journey into space will continue."

My view precisely...

	06-02-2003 01:17									#143
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They cannot prevent falling debris. So if debris hits a shuttle in the future, I believe the shuttle has to be brought down without a crew. This means that we are going to have to use the space station as rescue platform and provide it with alternative means of getting the crew back.

In the meantime, we need to put maximum effort into a replacement design that learns from the shuttle's design flaws.

	06-02-2003 03:37									#144
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Theres a picture in the Times magazine of the fuel tank from the Columbia sitting in someones yard. It is apprently intact, and my conspircy theorist friend went wild over how it is not damaged at all and didnt roll around because there would be marks on the grass etc. Is there any way to prove conclusivly that the piece did fall from the shuttle and wasnt planted there by a\the us government/aliens/fbi/cia

i offered the explanation that as the piece fell it lost speed and so when it hit the ground it wasnt going like 18 times the speed of sound. But then wouldnt it have burrowed into the ground?

Anyhow, are there any physicist our there to explain this?

	06-02-2003 04:41									#145
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Also, why does Nasa put tiles on the underside of the shuttle. Why not make one big sheet of this material and glue it on. That way if something strikes it, the integrity of the heat resistant tiles is not compromised.

	06-02-2003 05:30									#146
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quote: Also, why does Nasa put tiles on the underside of the shuttle. Why not make one big sheet of this material and glue it on. That way if something strikes it, the integrity of the heat resistant tiles is not compromised.

Lawrence: Do you mind telling me and NASA how you propose to be able to work on systems (critical systems mind you) that are underneath the tile? You would just replace one bad design flaw with another.

	06-02-2003 05:51									#147
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Ahh yes. I see. Didn't think of that. But maybe they could make those systems accessible from inside? That way if something messes up inflight, they have the added benefit of being able to make repairs without going outside the ship.

	06-02-2003 06:25									#148
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There s a video on cnn.com which shows Columbia's reentry. This is from inside the cockpit (i think) It was filmed by the crew in 1997.

But it needs a subscriber. Is there anyone here who is subscribed to CNN?

	06-02-2003 14:14									#149
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"So if debris hits a shuttle in the future, I believe the shuttle has to be brought down without a crew. This means that we are going to have to use the space station as rescue platform and provide it with alternative means of getting the crew back. "

Which means no missions to fix satellites, or deploy satellites...something I can't quite see them doing. It's one of the great advantages of the shuttle, to be able to go up there and upgrade, say, Hubble.

Lawrence:
They can't do a single sheet since this stuff is very fragile there would be no way to wrap it round the shuttle ithout damaging the material, making it considerably more dangerous than the individual tiles. In addition the tiling is all over the shuttle, not just the underside. And what Mad Bomber said...

Can't find the fuel tank shot you're talking about, so I can't really comment on it. The fuel tank would have hit the ground almost vertically, so there's no reason for it to have rolled. As for "undamaged" I'd have to see the picture.

...and I just watched the CNN video. Very pretty.

	06-02-2003 19:34									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Ahh yes. I see. Didn't think of that. But maybe they could make those systems accessible from inside? That way if something messes up inflight, they have the added benefit of being able to make repairs without going outside the ship.

You ever see an aircraft hanger, all the repairs of the major systems are accessed underneath, it makes repairs easier and faster. Also repair in flight of a system such as a multiplexor or a hydraulic line is not feasible, acess to it would be limited from the shuttle itself and repairs complicated and difficult. Having access to systems such as these might compromise the crew cabin as well.

NASA needs to come up with an ability to repair tile in space if it determines that they still are going to use the STS in missions.

Why has no one mentioned the enormous success of Deep Space One mission? This one mission has tested more critical technology than all of the Shuttle Missions combined, and it also proves that NASA can do something right.