04-02-2003 20:07									#1
	Idea for future game: Unit attrition Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Since the original thread about unit attrition hasn't been moved here, I'll start a new one here.

The concept is simple:
A military unit outside the national borders should risk damage each turn. The risk would be increased by hostile terrain, and decreased by technology, certain wonders or special training.

This would add both realism and strategic depth.

	04-02-2003 20:19									#2
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Its a good idea, but it penalized island dwellers.

How about requiring an increasing additional support requirement the further from your borders that you get. If you can't pay... then there is unit attrition. I agree that hostile terrain, such as tundra or desert would work well, as would having wonders, techs and special units (the equivalent of special training... or do you mean veteran status?) should affect the situation

MrBaggins

	05-02-2003 06:02									#3
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I guess it should start by simply diminishing the unit's quality. So over its hitpoints there should also be something called "unit's state" or something. This could also include morale, fatigue and so on if we wish.

	05-02-2003 06:16									#4
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I guess it should start by simply diminishing the unit's quality. So over its hitpoints there should also be something called "unit's state" or something. This could also include morale, fatigue and so on if we wish.

	05-02-2003 15:09									#5
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Civ3 took the step of making it much easier to defend since only the owner could use a road network.......I'm not sure I'd want to take it much further.

Interesting idea though.

	05-02-2003 15:36									#6
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I think that unit attrition makes more sense than not being allowed to use the enemy's roads.

	05-02-2003 16:07									#7
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Well ultimately I don't care much about realism or sense, but gameplay balance. It is reasonable to have some defensive advantages, but you can't go too far or you risk making offensive behaviour too risky an option.

I would not mind swapping attrition for the road issue, but I don't like the idea of both.

	05-02-2003 17:09									#8
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How about a simple abstraction of the supply lines, where a unit costs more to maintain the further it is from your borders. This is already being implemented in MoO3, and I see no reason why it wouldn't work in Civ games. No micromanagement, no wandering to the other side of the world for 100 years pillaging things either. Everyone's HAPPY

-Jam

	05-02-2003 17:14									#9
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which is exactly what I said above.

	05-02-2003 22:08									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Well ultimately I don't care much about realism or sense, but gameplay balance. It is reasonable to have some defensive advantages, but you can't go too far or you risk making offensive behaviour too risky an option. I would not mind swapping attrition for the road issue, but I don't like the idea of both.

Is reality unbalanced? No? Thus if Civ gets closer to something coherent (and immersive), then it is not supposed to become "unbalancable". If it's unbalanced, then there's a coherence problem somewhere and it has to be found.

	05-02-2003 22:14									#11
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I'm not getting into a reality debate. Civ is based on reality, but ultimately there are huge abstractions........it is a game. Hence I do not favour a move towards reality if gameplay is affected. I don't object certain aspects being made more realistic.......but gameplay must always IMO be the foremost consideration.

	06-02-2003 02:01									#12
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Abstractions is not the same thing as invention. An abstraction is including everything but in a condensed model. The point I wanted to put out is that if something is put realistically and well abstracted it wont have negative impacts on gameplay.

	11-02-2003 11:49									#13
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What is the rationale behind unit attrition?

	11-02-2003 15:47									#14
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What do you mean with "rationale"?

	11-02-2003 16:40									#15
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He wants a justification for unit attrition.

	11-02-2003 18:49									#16
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Do you ask for a reason to introduce unit attrition?

Exploration, colonization and offensives would become more difficult and expensive. In the existing civ games, those have been far too easy. Civ strategy is just about expansion, since building and conquering new cities always pay more than developing the ones you have.

It is realistic, too. Soldiers who cannot find food or shelter in the terrain will eventually die. Ships will sooner or later run out of supplies. A band of warriors shouldn't be able to cross the Sahara without special equipment or training.

	12-02-2003 08:12									#17
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Okay, but this requires an entirely new layer to be introduced. You have to consider season, terrain, experience, training, availability of medicine (including herbal medicine), supplies, money, etc. All sorts of nitty gritty details.

This brings up another point about units. For the longest time there was no standard for units. That means there weren't any units, unless you count armies of varying sizes (as in Europa Univeralis) as units.

	12-02-2003 15:25									#18
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You don't need that much details. It just needs a few new parameters.

Just give each terrain type an attrition ratio - which will be the probability of losing a hit point, and give some units the flag to avoid attrition.

	13-02-2003 08:31									#19
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It's not that simple. Could a warrior unit learn a thing or two in some kind of terrain in 20 years? Remember, a turn can be as long as 20 years. Or, could I say I give units special training before sending them out? Afterall, it doesn't take years to cross a few kilometers.

	13-02-2003 14:36									#20
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Remember it's all an abstraction anyway.......if you start thinking about it too much in terms of realism you will get nowhere fast. The key issue is that the defender should gain some advantage.........maybe unit attrition for most units (at a low level) is not a bad way to implement it.......it is hard to say without playtesting. The danger would be making warmaking too unattractive.

	13-02-2003 23:14									#21
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There's no danger of making "warmaking too unattractive" if anyway you balance all the rest to keep some sense to it (war has a sense in reality, so if done well it can't go opposite in the game).

	13-02-2003 23:22									#22
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Once again it's a game. An abstraction. It is perfectly possible for the addition of a 'realistic' feature to unbalance the game.....I have seen it happen time and time again. Just because something is realistic doesn't mean for a second it necessarily works well in a game.

	13-02-2003 23:37									#23
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I don't like the idea of unit attrition. I think the idea of increased costs for units outside of your territory holds merit.

quote: Civ3 took the step of making it much easier to defend since only the owner could use a road network

Not only that - units don't repair when inside enemy territory. I think that c/should be replace by not repairing when outside home/allied territory.

	14-02-2003 02:34									#24
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hi ,

good idea , all we need now is a way to fix those injured units , .... maybe a mobile repair shop or so , or the allies could fix it , .....

have a nice day

	14-02-2003 05:09									#25
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Well they should just fix themselves... they have medics within their troops and that's all...

The point is: do they battle as well after passing all this jungle/forest/else? And it could be represented (should be in a balanced way, like anything in a game). Remember, this is not only on the opponent's territory when you attack! It's also on your own territory if there isn't roads or anything. So it doesn't necessarily add an advantage to attacker, but simply an interesting thing about roads and all.

	14-02-2003 21:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna Well they should just fix themselves... they have medics within their troops and that's all... The point is: do they battle as well after passing all this jungle/forest/else? And it could be represented (should be in a balanced way, like anything in a game). Remember, this is not only on the opponent's territory when you attack! It's also on your own territory if there isn't roads or anything. So it doesn't necessarily add an advantage to attacker, but simply an interesting thing about roads and all.

hi ,

, a medical unit should be good for foot soldiers

a mobile workshop or so for tanks and mech infantry

have a nice day

	14-02-2003 23:16									#27
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You should keep the attrition model as simple as possible.

Instead of adding new units, attrition should be decreased by advanced technology.

And panag, I would appreciate if you started using capital initials and punctuation. That would make your post easier to read.

	15-02-2003 00:02									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

hi ,

optimizer,

, many have and said that, ...... and asked panag to make sense

it will not change

have a nice day

	15-02-2003 00:23									#29
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LOL

	15-02-2003 01:47									#30
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Think we got caught by this bot...