08-02-2003 06:52									#1
	Starting Position and first builds Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

As we get closer to the start of the game, we need to start thinking about a few things.

1) Starting Position - Do we settle immedeately or move to a better spot?

Some times, the placement of the first City can be a factor in our future growth. About 1/2 of the time that I have started a game, I have elected to move to a better spot, for various reasons. This allows me to be better placed for future expansion.

2) First Builds - this will partly depend on several factors: Civ choice & Starting Techs; Any Terrain Bonuses; Our first Plans, which is mostly exploration.

The quickest thing to first build is a Warrior, but If our Terrain is favorable (or not), we might want to delay them to build a Barracks for Vet Warriors. Regular Warriors can be promoted from Barb encounters, but you can't always count on that.

Other things are Ganaries (if we need faster growth). Temples (if our growth potential is really good). Walls (for defence, depending on our start position).

Units - Mil Units, Scouts (if Expansionist), Workers & Settlers will of course be needed, but proper timing can be key to getting ahead.

E_T

	08-02-2003 07:29									#2
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I would advocate going straight to warriors, without a barracks, unless the situation is truly favorable (or unfavorable and we are under threat)

	08-02-2003 10:00									#3
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hi ,

we should see around first , .....if an ocean or sea is two squares away we should move , .....

a scout might be handy , .....

a temple and granery should be first choice then barracks with a couple settlers workers and some units , again scouts would be very intresting , ....

haze a nice day

	08-02-2003 18:27									#4
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NO for barracks. Warriors or scouts. First priority is exploring.

	08-02-2003 19:12									#5
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Warriors come first. We may be competing with other teams on being the first to pop several goodie huts, and missing a few free techs or a settler just so that we could build early veteran warriors isn't justified.
The first improvement that we build should certainly be a granary. The second should be a temple or a barracks, depending on circumstances.

	08-02-2003 20:20									#6
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I'm with Tiberius and Shiber. Warriors. For exploration and goody huts. Worked in with the settler build depending on the food-shield combination of the starting position.

After that - granary or temple. Baracks are great for an early rush game, but that clearly does not look like the option being pursued.

	08-02-2003 21:34									#7
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Why do so many people want a temple so early? I'm a dedicated builder and a culture-freak, but isn't it more important to explore and expand in the early turns?

For the first turns I'd build only warriors and settlers (or scouts if the are exp.). Maybe spearmen instead of warriors after a while.

I'd build a granary only in the settler farm (may not be the capital), while barracks should be built only in a production center, that grows too slowly to produce settlers and workers, but can produce quickly military units.
Workers are important too, especially if we won't be industrious.

	08-02-2003 22:14									#8
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Gott a go with Tiberius here - 2-3 Warriors first up for exploring/defending the city, then settlers whenever we can until we start filling up the land around us. We have to time it so we build a unit or two, then a settler so that it is done as close to the turn the city grows to three as possible. Once we have several decent city sites and a potential settler farm or two we can afford the luxury to have some cities not building settlers constantly, but until then it's grab or be out-grabbed.

	09-02-2003 01:07									#9
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No to barracks, unless we're miltaristic.

No to granaries,unless there's spare time before a city reaches size 3. I've gotten burned when I was new to civ3, by building early granaries.

Both of these treads have the pro and con arguments.

Yes to asking us whether we want the original position, if and only if a visible tile looks better.

No to temples, if the growth is too fast, we can use the luxury slider until our expansion phase is over, then build one and have the benefits of expansion for the rest of the game. (An extra settler gives our civ +2 food plus possible settlers of its own, much better than a temple for a religious civ.)

No to walls our 1st units are free, and you need several units to make a wall economical.

With a standard map use
3 or less scouts
OR
5 or less warrior scouts.

Last edited by realpolitic on 12-02-2003 at 01:19

	09-02-2003 19:01									#10
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hi ,

, we could work with a civ that has a scout at the start and is industrious , .....

ones again the americans come to mind , they start with a scout and can build one in to three turns from the start , we should build at least 4 scouts asap before anything else , .....

the americans tend to expand very fast also , ....

have a nice day

	10-02-2003 01:45									#11
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Building a barracks first has some real merits, but it tends to be a gamble. Building the barracks first makes you both vulnerable until you can pop out warriors and/or spearmen after the barracks AND it means you don't get early exploration with those first several warriors.

However, it's a gamble because every now and then building a barracks first (especially if you're a militaristic civilization and it only costs you 20 shields) can really pay off when you're exploring with veteran warriors and building veteran spearman from the start of the game.

I would agree with others, however, that in a game with such high stakes, such a gamble likely isn't what we're after for the start of the game. A more reliable and conservative approach is preferable.

	10-02-2003 01:59									#12
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Warriors or scouts first. Knowing the surrounded area makes it easier to create plans for building new cities and eventually for rexing, but that's another discussion.

Aidun

	10-02-2003 17:34									#13
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hi ,

goody huts are important , the sooner the scouts are on the way the better , ......

we can at least build three four scouts without any danger , ......

have a nice day

	10-02-2003 18:30									#14
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I have been burnt so often sending out more than 2 warriors.

An aggressive team will send a warrior scout into your cultural borders, just to check for undefended cities.

I shall share some info about the GOW team.....
We used our capitals warrior to scout some fogged area behind us....leaving the city undefended for a few rounds.
Lux just happened to choose this time to invade our borders. We had no way of pop rushing a defender, or rushing our warrior back. Lux had us ... we were screwed.
But our negotiators came through and saved the day.

This has happened to me more than once on other PBEM games.

No more than 1 warrior/scout for exploration. The next one is for defense.

	10-02-2003 22:08									#15
	Re: Starting Position and first builds Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

1. Depends on the spot.

If we are one tile away from a fresh water source, we should move to it.

If we are one tile away from the ocean we should either move to the coast (allowing harbors) or one tile further back. (Elimating ocean tiles from the CR)

Otherwise we should settle the first turn.

2. None of the top 3 are currnetly Expanisot, so we should build 3 warriors first. 2 of them for scounting, the other for local defense / killing terriorist camps Anything other than that is asking for a quick conquest defeat. After that, the situation will dictate if we can build a settler or if we need a Baracks (if we've received that tech.)

First tech: If Commerical (And Cartherinage is the leading choice): Writing. Use the 1 beaker over 40 turns trick to get this realtively expensive tech on the cheap (initally 20% slider, may drop to 10% if there is a lot of river tiles.)

quote: Originally posted by E_T As we get closer to the start of the game, we need to start thinking about a few things. 1) Starting Position - Do we settle immedeately or move to a better spot? Some times, the placement of the first City can be a factor in our future growth. About 1/2 of the time that I have started a game, I have elected to move to a better spot, for various reasons. This allows me to be better placed for future expansion. 2) First Builds - this will partly depend on several factors: Civ choice & Starting Techs; Any Terrain Bonuses; Our first Plans, which is mostly exploration. The quickest thing to first build is a Warrior, but If our Terrain is favorable (or not), we might want to delay them to build a Barracks for Vet Warriors. Regular Warriors can be promoted from Barb encounters, but you can't always count on that. Other things are Ganaries (if we need faster growth). Temples (if our growth potential is really good). Walls (for defence, depending on our start position). Units - Mil Units, Scouts (if Expansionist), Workers & Settlers will of course be needed, but proper timing can be key to getting ahead. E_T

	10-02-2003 22:17									#16
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On Civ improvements:

This is assuming we are Cartheniage, which is the leadnig choice.

Ind + Com : Full price for ALL structures, NONE of which can be built until we get other techs, with the possible exception of relocating the Palace & the normally not worth building City Walls. Similarly, our inital unit choices are Warriors, Workers, and Settlers.

So 3 Warriors and then a Settler seem to be the best option.

	12-02-2003 00:22									#17
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I personally, am partial to moving 1 tile often to get a better spot.

Also, I'm a huge fan of granaries, especially on smaller maps, so I elect that we invest in at least one.

	12-02-2003 00:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn So 3 Warriors and then a Settler seem to be the best option.

Agreed.

--Togas

	12-02-2003 00:28									#19
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I can live with that.

After that, I'd probably want a granary, depending upon the situation...

	12-02-2003 00:32									#20
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In my own games, about 60% of the time, the test I use above shows it should be moved the one tile.

I like placing a Granery in my capital when Expansionist as the first city improvement build but with Cartherage as the #1 choice, our first city improvement build will depend on who we start near and/or the goody huts.

I think that the Firaxis team may be waiting on purpose for every other team to decide their top 3 and if no team picks an Expaniost civ, they will pick one and rack up all the goody huts on their starting land mass.

	12-02-2003 00:35									#21
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Of course, using the Worker to get a good view first is necassary.

Expansionist worked well for Neu Demogyptica in the PTW DG, so it's a good, viable strategy, and the Firaxians seemed to like it a lot, so it's something we should look out for.

	12-02-2003 00:56									#22
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When I'm moving the settler, I have the worker build a road on the starting tile. That worker has a lot to do initally.

When I'm keeping the settler in place, I have the worker build a road in the most useful tile adjenanct to the capital. It's usually either a bonus tile or a grassland + shield tile.

	12-02-2003 01:00									#23
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What if the starting tile is poor?

	12-02-2003 01:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos However, it's a gamble because every now and then building a barracks first (especially if you're a militaristic civilization and it only costs you 20 shields) can really pay off when you're exploring with veteran warriors and building veteran spearman from the start of the game. I would agree with others, however, that in a game with such high stakes, such a gamble likely isn't what we're after for the start of the game. A more reliable and conservative approach is preferable.

Even a militaristic civ shouldn't build barracks for warrior/explorers. The sooner they get out, the more they explore. In some cases , we may need 1 less warrior for that purpose. 4 regular spearmen provide roughly the defence of 3 veteren spearmen, A militaristic civ would pay 80 shields for both, so I wouldn't recommend it for an early garrison.

An early garrison is essential, as HE has said, GoW almost lost an undefended city. If that happens in this game, our neighbors might decide to carve us up.

	12-02-2003 01:05									#25
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Roading the starting tile when the settler is being moved one tile is always useful.

Even if that tile won't be worked in the ancient era (and won't benfit commerce), you can send the first scouting warrior an extra square the turn it's built using that road and in addition, road connecting to cities in that direction will be easier.

	12-02-2003 01:07									#26
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I would still say it would depend on the situation. We have to wait and see what the place looks like first.

We had two PTW teams under our thumb for a while, but ending the game like that wouldn't have been fun.

	12-02-2003 05:42									#27
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If the starting tile isn't going to be settled on, it's usually best to move the Worker first to a good tile that would be improved anyways (or onto elevation if it's a particularly bad start). This will put them in a useful position while uncovering more territory to help decide where to settle.

	12-02-2003 06:05									#28
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Agreed.

If you can see most of the area, and know where you want to settle next turn, then move the worker somewhere useful. If not, move him somewhere so that you can see more of the area.

	12-02-2003 15:17									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Trip What if the starting tile is poor?

hi ,

the Americans seem to end up most of the time with a good starting location , ......

have a nice day

	12-02-2003 20:32									#30
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Moving the worker the first turn when the settler is also moved always wastes a turn later, when a worker has to go back and road that tile for the same reason that moving any worker that starts on a non-road tile is.