12-02-2003 04:43									#211
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This is hardly the type of "productive and innovative" I was talking about.

	12-02-2003 04:46									#212
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Willem,

That's not true. The fact is that banks do say no sometimes. And those are the people who are expecting them to say yes. There are multitudes of people who know they can't get a loan so they don't even ask for one.

	12-02-2003 04:50									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx People have different levels of opportunity in this country

hmmmm... There is another potential quote for my signature.

	12-02-2003 04:54									#214
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Azazel, no matter how you look at the central economic model of socialism, it is not as efficient and productive as free enterprise. Soon the free companies will drive the state businesses into a loss position so that they must be run with state subsidies. If the state responds by outlawing free enterprise, then the state quickly will become like the communist block: impoverished vs. the West. Many workers will attempt to flee such a paradise. Since this cannot happen, the state imposes totalitarianism.

In the end, the workers will revolt and demand a better life.

This is so simple and self evident, it is a wonder that the left has never really understood it. It is not a wonder that every country that has tried to impose a totally centrally planned economy or a worker-owned economy has failed to provide prosperity and a good life for the worker.

	12-02-2003 06:14									#215
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Back from the Vet. Cat's gotta have surgery, but we'll schedule it tomorrow.

Duncan, do you realize how silly your last statement was?

Do you think that Bill Gates, when he started out, had the same opportunities for credit, loans, and such as Bill Gates does today?

OF COURSE the opportunity level of each person is different. That is because each PERSON is different. I don't know if you knew it, but banks are within their rights to say no, whether you were expecting a yes or not. If they do not believe you can, or will pay the money back, you very likely will not get the money. It was never yours anyway, so what have you lost, exactly?

To compare a person who has demonstrated successfully that he can run a mega corporation, and point to the fact that this person has more opportunities than the guy working at your level seven-eleven is rather stating the obvious, do you not agree? Or, would you rather live in a world where EVERYONE had access to a "Bill Gates" size, line of credit, "just because."

If you and I were out fishing, I caught six, and you caught two, would you shout at me, "HEY! That's not fair!" Right? I mean, what gives me the right to have more fish!? Should I give you two to make you feel better and balance it all out? Should I release four so we have the exact same outcome? And why? So I caught some more fish than you.....lucky I guess. That hardly makes me evil, or a thief, and yet....that is exactly the picture you attempt to paint.

People....even the poorer people I used to council have, using the methods I teach them, started with NOTHING and built opportunities for themselves. Are they on the same scale as Bill Gates' opportunities? Hell no they're not! Then again, it doesn't take as large an opportunity to jump from 15,000 bucks a year to 30,000 as it does to jump from 8 million to 16 million, does it? And so what if they don't have access to a "Bill Gates" line of credit. They can make their own opportunities without that, and be THRILLED at the progress they're seeing. That's what it's all about. Making headway. Improving yourself. And one day, if they keep at it (and many of the folks I have counselled are), they'll get there. Where? To wherever they want to be.

That's the point, isn't it?

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 07:37									#216
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Vel, I have been arguing with communists for years. They assert the moral superiority of their system. But even the most cursory examination of their principles shows that communism and socialism ineluctably leads to failure or force or both.

They then stop arguing.

The next day, they repeat the moral superiority of their system.

I think they are simply radicals looking for a cause. If we gave them democracy as a cause, perhaps they would switch sides and fight for freedom. Perhaps we should radicalize the world and go on the offenisive against socialism, communism and pure tyrannies wherever we find them. The radicals of the world could then join a cause that provides true hope for the oppressed of the world.

	12-02-2003 07:43									#217
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I should stop arguing as well...I know....OT is like a disease sometimes tho...an addiction...

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 07:52									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Vel, I have been arguing with communists for years. They assert the moral superiority of their system. But even the most cursory examination of their principles shows that communism and socialism ineluctably leads to failure or force or both. They then stop arguing. The next day, they repeat the moral superiority of their system. I think they are simply radicals looking for a cause. If we gave them democracy as a cause, perhaps they would switch sides and fight for freedom. Perhaps we should radicalize the world and go on the offenisive against socialism, communism and pure tyrannies wherever we find them. The radicals of the world could then join a cause that provides true hope for the oppressed of the world.

I'll always fight for freedom Ned. I will never fight for capitalism however. That's not to say that I wouldn't be content in a system that was significantly fair. I'm not an absolutist.

	12-02-2003 07:54									#219
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Good luck with your cat Vel

	12-02-2003 08:01									#220
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Thanks Duncan, she'll be okay....just gonna have to live with a limp till we can get her into surgery.

As to a system that's significantly fair....tell me where you see capitalism as failing to be "significantly fair?"

Ahhh, and to your fish hook response: *Tripling* your catch is beside the point? That may well mean the difference between you "just having enough" food to survive on, and actually being well fed! I'd say that is THE point!

But again, I note that you are worrying unduly about how other people spend their time.

What if Arrian DID go fishing with the rest of us, and before he went to sleep tonight, he made a couple of fish hooks while we were getting ready for bed? Would that somehow make it "different?"

The next day, we all get up, and go fishing, and Arrian is catching three times more fish than we are! We would, naturally, want to know how, and Arrian shows us the hook he made....it's ingenious! AND, he's willing to make one for us too, for a fish a week from our catch.

Remember now....you don't HAVE TO take the hook. That's up to you. Triple your catch, and give Arrian a fish a week, or keep doing what you're doing....your choice! How is that exploitive?

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 08:11									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Thanks Duncan, she'll be okay....just gonna have to live with a limp till we can get her into surgery. As to a system that's significantly fair....tell me where you see capitalism as failing to be "significantly fair?"

As far as reality goes there would have to be a much smaller disparity in distribution and no one would be going without.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Ahhh, and to your fish hook response: *Tripling* your catch is beside the point? That may well mean the difference between you "just having enough" food to survive on, and actually being well fed! I'd say that is THE point! But again, I note that you are worrying unduly about how other people spend their time. What if Arrian DID go fishing with the rest of us, and before he went to sleep tonight, he made a couple of fish hooks while we were getting ready for bed? Would that somehow make it "different?" The next day, we all get up, and go fishing, and Arrian is catching three times more fish than we are! We would, naturally, want to know how, and Arrian shows us the hook he made....it's ingenious! AND, he's willing to make one for us too, for a fish a week from our catch. Remember now....you don't HAVE TO take the hook. That's up to you. Triple your catch, and give Arrian a fish a week, or keep doing what you're doing....your choice! How is that exploitive? -=Vel=-

As far as this little hypothetical thing goes. I would care less as long as no one went hungry. Of course if Arrian started trying to take over the world I would take him down.

	12-02-2003 08:15									#222
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So....once again, you look to see what other people are doing, and how much they're making, rather than focusing on YOU.

This is what mystifies me most of all.

A question for you....let's say that you and I have an opportunity to make an investment together, but we need to pull 10,000 dollars together to do it.

I scrounge around and get 6,000, and you do likewise and get 4,000.

We make the investment, and it doubles in it's value.

To my way of thinking, when we "cash out" I should get 12,000 and you get 8,000, but I sense that you would cry foul at that. After all, the investment is worth 20,000. We should each get 10,000 according to your thinking. It's not fair that I'm getting more!

Isn't it? I put in more....shouldn't I get more out?

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 08:37									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx So....once again, you look to see what other people are doing, and how much they're making, rather than focusing on YOU.

Oh, you better believe I'm focusing on me. It's my damn labor. If my work produces 10 widgets and I only get paid for 5 I'm going try and figure out what the hell happened.

	12-02-2003 08:40									#224
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Yes...and in that case, you'd have every right to call foul! (assuming that you arranged to get paid on a "per piece" basis, you'd be totally right!

What's not right is that if you cry foul for getting what you agreed to! You agree to go to work, and get paid $10 per widget you make, and you make 10 widgets, then you get....$100.00. You got what you agreed to.

It doesn't matter if the plant owner is getting $500....that shouldn't even factor into the equation. You agreed to work for $10.00 per widget. He paid you $10.00 per widget.

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 08:52									#225
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No No No,

I may have agree to getting paid for producing 5 widgets, but actually produced 10 widgets. I'll still be pissed.

	12-02-2003 08:54									#226
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If you only agreed to produce 5 widgets for money, and you weren't sure if you'd get paid for producing more than that (cos it was outside the bounds of the agreement, why produce more? Why would you do that?)

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 08:57									#227
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Well I'm in broad agreement with the likes of Vel and AH, for america to gain respect it has to earn it.

There is no better way than to be first among equals as AH puts it.

For those that think that the US will always be all powerful, a lesson should be learned from the UK and her empire 'on which the sun never set'.

This was an empire comprising some 25% of the world's landmass which was at the zenith of it's power on the 1st of August 1914...

The rest as they say is history...



So, please shape up and consider that the world contains more than 275m people, actually around 6+ billion and that 'first among equals' should be considered in human terms, not national terms...



And DunK, stop about those widgets again already - it always comes down to widgets with you...

	12-02-2003 08:57									#228
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Because it was the best deal there is. Because the way the system is I can't get a job where I keep everything that I produce.

	12-02-2003 08:58									#229
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Too bad we broke the enigma code though first MOBIUS!

	12-02-2003 09:00									#230
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That doesn't really answer the question tho.

The agreement was that you get paid for making five widgets. Make five widgets, get paid...ALL STOP.

If you choose to go outside the bounds of the contract, and continue making widgets, you run the risk of not getting paid for them. No one is forcing you to make more widgets, and you might not get anything for making them....so why continue? Take a long lunch and forget the widgets!

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 09:00									#231
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS And DunK, stop about those widgets again already - it always comes down to widgets with you...

Sorry MOBIUS, I will try to call them "thingies"

	12-02-2003 09:03									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Oh be quiet MOBIUS.

Not if that's the best you can manage...

	12-02-2003 09:05									#233
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Sometimes it's best to say little if you want someone to shut up

	12-02-2003 09:06									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Too bad we broke the enigma code though first MOBIUS!

Oh yes that's better!

But you didn't edit your original lame ass reply quickly enough

	12-02-2003 09:06									#235
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Dammit I tried to edit it but you got to it first.

	12-02-2003 09:08									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Willem, I have no doubt in the fact that everyone can start a bussiness. My problem is that there is a presumption that greed and the fear of being hungry are the only two ways to make a person productive and innovative.

I don't follow you. I don't think anyone has implied those are the only two reasons.

	12-02-2003 09:09									#237
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Sorry man I have been slipping lately.

	12-02-2003 09:09									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Dammit I tried to edit it but you got to it first.

SUCKA!!!

	12-02-2003 09:16									#240
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Willem, That's not true. The fact is that banks do say no sometimes. And those are the people who are expecting them to say yes. There are multitudes of people who know they can't get a loan so they don't even ask for one.

No, those are the ones that give up trying. The ones that go back to their idea, polish it up and clarify their goals some more, will go back to the bank and try again. And eventually they will succeed. The loans manager will see that they mean business and that they've thought things through very carefully, and will trust them to do the right thing with the money. It's all just a matter of trust as I said.