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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:25
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Going to give it another whirl....not that I expect to change any minds, but what the heck....I'm groggy from Nyquil, and this is actually kinna fun.
Having clawed my way up from the bottom of the capitalistic food chain to somewhere in the middle, I am speaking from personal, first-hand experience when I tell you that capitalism offers a high degree of social mobility. I know it does, not from theorizing, not from guessing, but because I am a living example of that very thing.
I began with nothing but debt and a crappy car, and am to the point where I have almost no debt, a good car, and am saving toward a house.
That didn't happen because I lied, cheated, and stole my way up from the bottom. It didn't happen because some fat-cat at the PolitBoro handed me anything, it happened because I busted my a$$ and made it happen.
It happened because I took the initiative to bring about the result that I desired for myself. No one set my goals for me, no one held a gun to my head and MADE me go to work at any particular place (and sometimes, several places). I chose to do it, and I accepted the responsibility that came along with that.
Are some people born with better opportunities? They certainly are, and that statement holds true whether you are in a capitalist or a communist society (do you really believe that, during the height of the Soviet Union, the children of the party leaders were not even *slightly* better off than the poorest of the poor? Do you belive that even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?).
The thing is, however, economics is not a zero sum game. It is NOT the case that if I have more, it means that you have less. That is simply not the way it works. IF that was the way it works, then there would never be any way for total productivity, or global GDP to increase. It would be, in a word, impossible for that to occur.
But it has.
Which means that even IF some people are born with more and better opportunities, everybody HAS opportunities.
You seem exceedingly hung up on worrying about what other people are doing, rather than focusing on what YOU are doing (example: Regarding Arrian and the fish hooks - you asked what Arrian was going to be doing while we were out fishing. - Why ask that? Why worry about what Arrian is doing with his time? It is, after all HIS time, not yours), and this seems to be a key difference.
In every communist experiment that has ever existed, the equality you are striving to achieve has not existed. The disparities between the richest and poorest may not have been as wide, but they have always been there. There is no indication that trying it "your way" would work out any differently, but there is a body of historical evidence that sugessts otherwise.
If you truly feel that the act of going to work equates to your being oppressed, then why don't you take out a loan and start up your own business? Would that not solve the "I'm being oppressed!" problem?
If you currently own a house, why not give it to the less fortunate around you? Surely they are no less deserving of a house?
I don't knock anybody for their beliefs, but the communist ideal is just that...an ideal. It is a system that promises something it cannot deliver.
Capitalism makes no promises, but this. Hard work and innovation are rewarded.
Are other things rewarded as well? Things like lying, cheating, and stealing? Yep....in the short run, they can be rewarded under a capitalist system. But in the end, the liars, cheats, and swindlers get caught, and jailed, and their work gets undone.
When you look at people who are examples of, as you say "the oppression of capitalism" and you point to those as being a point in your favor, I would ask you to dig slightly deeper than the surface. I have, because I used to do that for a living....helping people get from hand-to-mouth to something more. Something better.
Do you know what I found?
In almost every case, there was a direct cause of their current situation, and it was not "capitalsim." It was usually one or more of the following: Lack of understanding of the economy, lack of understanding of money, lack of understanding of budgeting, living beyond their means, addiction of one form or another (the lotto, smoking, alcahol, drugs, other), or simple laziness.
None of these reasons has anything to do with the "inherent evilness of capitalism." All of them are behavioral or education problems, and these are easily solvable problems indeed.
Your argument against capitalism has not shown me the first solid example of "the evils of capitalism" at work.
Where are they?
-=Vel=-
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
There are different ways of organizing accountabilty in socialism as well.
in a more decentralized scenario, one company would sue the other. The management would be chosen by the workers, for example.
It could complain to oversight, that would change the management.
there are different ways to tackle such a problem.
Well, if they're doing well, why do we need private ownership of industry as a pre-requisite of good management, and effectivness? |
I'm sorry Azazel, I thought you were too intelligent to believe in this nonsense.
State businesses are by definition monopolies. One cannot have two businesses competing with each other, can we? That would be "unfair."
The problem with monopolies are notorious. They are inefficient and tend to bad products at high costs.
An entire system based on such muddled thinking cannot produce anything but poverty. A country that bases its economy on such systems will soon be bypassed by countries that are based on free enterprise. Workers will then want to flee the communist paradise. They are kept in by barbed wire, mine fields, dogs and trigger-happy border guards that aim for the back.
Come on, think!
Last edited by Ned on 12-02-2003 at 04:18
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DuncanK
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Evil Empire
Dec 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
In almost every case, there was a direct cause of their current situation, and it was not "capitalsim." It was usually one or more of the following: Lack of understanding of the economy, lack of understanding of money, lack of understanding of budgeting, living beyond their means, addiction of one form or another (the lotto, smoking, alcahol, drugs, other), or simple laziness.
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I have a lot of objections to your long post, but I'll just address this one.
You don't seem to go very far away from your inner circle and look at how the world truly is. You tend to look around your immediate surroundings and make judgements about the world with that as your model.
The reasons that you are giving for capitalism not working for people tend to only apply to those with priviledge. Sure there are underpriviledged people who are addicted to drugs and so on, but thats not the only thing that keeps them down. Lack of opportunity also keeps them down. On the other hand the only thing that could ruin a priviledged person are faults within themselves.
Oh, btw. Did you know that banks turn people down for loans. Maybe you should go hang out at a bank and wait for a poor person to go in there and ask for a loan. I can tell you right now. They don't get it.
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12-02-2003 03:19
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