11-02-2003 00:36									#91
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why should we?

Maybe cause the US set up the U.N in the first place.

You can always withdraw like 1930's Japan invading
China, or 1930s Italy invading Ethopia.

Mhh... Seems to be a common theme developing here.

	11-02-2003 00:36									#92
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The facts, Duncan, do not bear out what you are saying.

More often than not, people go to work ten or twelve hours a day, busting their a$$es for the money to make their dreams come true.

America creates more millionaires every year than any other nation on the planet.

America has more millionaires per capita than any other nation on the planet.

Do you actually believe they're all liars, cheats, and theives?

Will you think the same of me when i get there?

-=Vel=-

	11-02-2003 00:41									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz Maybe cause the US set up the U.N in the first place.

What exactly does that have to do with agreeing to treaties that you don't believe are in your best interests to ratify?

	11-02-2003 00:44									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx More often than not, people go to work ten or twelve hours a day, busting their a$$es for the money to make their dreams come true.

Not true, most people are just trying to survive.

"All capital is dripping with blood"-marx

I'm not talking about people who save their money to use for retirement or vacation, but people who borrow money, invest that money in some industry, employ a bunch of people to do the work for them, and then live like a fat cat are cheats.

	11-02-2003 00:55									#95
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Why are they cheats, exactly? They took the *initiative* and the (not insubstantial) *risk* of starting up a new business.

They did not put guns to the heads of the people they interviewed, and force them to come to work at the new factory, chaining them to the machinery, rather they are offering people a chance to earn a fair wage for a day's work.

These people can either accept or decline that offer. If they don't like the offer, they can ask for more, and they may get it.

Where is the servitude here? At no point is there coersion on my part...I'm not threatening anybody....they can either come to work for me or not.

And, since I am taking the big risk here (the banks will not come looking for you if I can't make the interest payment on the machine, they'll come looking for me), so what if I make more money? Given the added risk on my part, it's not something I'm going to feel guilty about, and in any case, it's an entirely separate transaction from the wage you agreed to when you agreed to come to work. You didn't agree to come to work, contingent on what I'm making, you made your own decision about whether or not the offered wage was fair.

As to saving for the future or survival....if that is true of the majority of people you know, then write me privately. I made a business of helping people out of that very situation for a few years, and was successful at it. Don't do it any more (at least not for a living), but I'd be willing to lend a hand if needed. I can tell you though, that NONE of the people I know are living hand to mouth. Some were....but I changed that....more importantly, I helped them to change it for themselves...

-=Vel=-

	11-02-2003 00:59									#96
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Oh well, they took initiative so I will give them part of what I have work so hard for. It doesn't matter that I'm struggling to survive, oh but someone took initiative.

btw, that is sarcasm

	11-02-2003 01:04									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx As to saving for the future or survival....if that is true of the majority of people you know, then write me privately. I made a business of helping people out of that very situation for a few years, and was successful at it. Don't do it any more (at least not for a living), but I'd be willing to lend a hand if needed. I can tell you though, that NONE of the people I know are living hand to mouth. Some were....but I changed that....more importantly, I helped them to change it for themselves... -=Vel=-

Thanx Vel, I'm not ashamed to say that I've been through tuff times. Luckily for be someone has always been there to help me out. Just because I have everything I need right now doesn't mean that I'm not struggling to survive though. I don't have a large bank account in case something happens to my family. There are a lot of people who don't have someone to lean on when something does happen.

Sure, there is a lot of charity, but it will never be enough.

	11-02-2003 01:09									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And, since I am taking the big risk here (the banks will not come looking for you if I can't make the interest payment on the machine, they'll come looking for me), so what if I make more money? Given the added risk on my part, it's not something I'm going to feel guilty about, and in any case, it's an entirely separate transaction from the wage you agreed to when you agreed to come to work. You didn't agree to come to work, contingent on what I'm making, you made your own decision about whether or not the offered wage was fair.

Working is not an option for most people. The bulk of workers are not happy with their job, that doesn't mean they are going to quit. Quiting is irresponsible, especially if you have a family. This is where the capitalist are able to exploit the workers. They will always have more negotiating power. The are the owners so they can go without production, but the workers can not.

	11-02-2003 01:20									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Many years ago, I think Bresnev was in power, I ran into a girl who had left the Soviet Union. She mentioned that yes, everyone had a job, but the approach was to hire three people for a task that only required one. Now I don't know about you, but I think I would rather curl up and die than be forced to work at a boring job where I usually ended up sitting on my butt for 8 hours a day.

That's because for some reason we are a slave to the 8 hour day.

From your example I think each person should have only been working around 3 hours a day.

I keep hearing how much more productive we are now, and how great the system is, but yet people are working more and more just to get by. A lot of people say you need two incomes now, you didn't when my parents were my age.

	11-02-2003 01:47									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader I keep hearing how much more productive we are now, and how great the system is, but yet people are working more and more just to get by. A lot of people say you need two incomes now, you didn't when my parents were my age.

That's hardly surprising given all the competition from developing countries. If people in these countries can do the same job at only a tenth of your compensation, then you must expect some effect on your job security and compensation.

	11-02-2003 01:55									#101
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Not true, most people are just trying to survive.

That's crap! The middle class is the majority in our societies and judging by the computers, televisions (sometimes one in each room), game consoles, dishwashers, food processors etc. etc. that I see in their homes, I'd say they were doing more than just surviving. They want "stuff", and the capitalist system is designed to give them that "stuff".

Now do they want to much "stuff"? I'd say yes, but why should society have the right to determine what they can or cannot have, while some "fat cat" politburo gets pretty much anything he/she wants.

	11-02-2003 02:02									#102
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK The bulk of workers are not happy with their job, that doesn't mean they are going to quit.

Well I can't speak for the US but here in Canada a recent poll discovered that 60% of Canadians were happy with their jobs, and felt secure. And yes, it was a reputable poll.

Yep, a capitalist society is really tough to live in. Oh, and that was also sarcasm.

	11-02-2003 02:05									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader A lot of people say you need two incomes now, you didn't when my parents were my age.

But we also have a much higher standard of living than our parents did as well. It balances out.

	11-02-2003 02:06									#104
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IF people are living hand to mouth, they can change it. I know....I've done it. Not once, but 4-5 times. For a long time, my life was very restless. Pretty much living outta my car, traveling around gypsy style and taking odd jobs where I could find them.

I learned a lot about the world that way, and saw a lot of cool things. It's not an experience I would trade for anything, but a lot of people would view it as irresponsible since I wasn't doing the typical nine-to-five routine.

I'd find a new town, get myself set up, and invariably, the restlessness would settle in, I'd sell everything, pick up, and move to another new town and start over.

Eventually, I got all that wanderlust out of my system, and started over one last time (oddly, right back where I started from, in South Carolina). Been here for five years now, and in that time, I have once again, gotten myself set up and established, bought and paid for a new truck, and will be in my first house by this October.

I was able to do that, not by being lazy, but by busting my a$$ every day, working two jobs for a while, AND writing my books AND working on a computer game.

Was it fun? Nope. It was a grind. Sometimes I HATED even having to get out of bed in the morning.

Is it working? Yes! To the point where I've now got three books written, a game soon to be in beta, and have been able to cut back to one job (which makes every day feel like a vacation!).

When I got back from my little gypsy jaunt, I was more than twelve thousand dollars in debt, and had a car that appraised at (don't laugh) $490 bucks (traded it in on the truck).

Having lived and breathed what you are talking about, I can tell you with confidence that the bulk of people living hand to mouth do it to themselves. It's called "living beyond your means."

For years, I have lived slightly beneath my means (not greatly, mind you, just slightly), and the results have been staggering.

If I could do it over again, I'd live radically beneath my means and accomplish my goals quicker, but I was a cautious experimenter in that regard.

It works. Not just for some people, but for everybody.

Doesn't matter what kind of job you do, or how much education you have....*it does not matter.*

If you want to break free from the system that you feel chains you, then you must be willing to do what it takes to get there, however.

If you're not willing to make sacrifices along the way, then you must ask yourself, how important is it to you?

-=Vel=-

	11-02-2003 02:15									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx IF people are living hand to mouth, they can change it. I know....I've done it. Not once, but 4-5 times. For a long time, my life was very restless. Pretty much living outta my car, traveling around gypsy style and taking odd jobs where I could find them.

Cool, I did pretty much the same thing. I lived out of a knapsack for about 5 years and just kept moving around. During that time I got into music and spent time playing my guitar on the street corner for spare change. "There's no life like it!"

(Damn hippies, some people quietly mutter under their breath.)

	11-02-2003 03:03									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Willem But we also have a much higher standard of living than our parents did as well. It balances out.

Now that depends on what you consider a higher standard of living.

We have more gadgets, but does more "stuff" automatically mean a better QOL?

	11-02-2003 03:09									#107
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*Excellent* Willem! Kindred spirits, then!

	11-02-2003 03:14									#108
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And Garth - I would say that the gadgets by themselves certainly do NOT automatically mean a higher standard of living, but gadgets fascinate the denizens of the modern world, and they almost invariably spend more than is healthy on them. Whether this is driven by a percieved "need" or not though, I am uncertain.

As for myself, my home is mostly old school, with some high tech.

I read by the light of an oil lamp, for example, but can't live without my cable modem!

-=Vel=-

	11-02-2003 10:38									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader Now that depends on what you consider a higher standard of living. We have more gadgets, but does more "stuff" automatically mean a better QOL?

For many people yes. But we're also living longer and healthier, we have many more avenues for communication, and we tend to be better educated as well as entertained. Plus our cars are safer and less polluting, air travel is cheaper than it ever has been, and we have much more of a healthy variety in the grocery stores.

	11-02-2003 10:52									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Willem That's crap! The middle class is the majority in our societies.

Not so - most people are working class. They think they are middle class but if they work for wages or salary and don't own the means of production they are working class.

Sorry to break this to you (not).

	11-02-2003 11:49									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Not so - most people are working class. They think they are middle class but if they work for wages or salary and don't own the means of production they are working class. Sorry to break this to you (not).

Well if you want to quibble about semantics, then virtually everyone is working class, including Bill Gates. He still puts in his time at the office like everyone else. You'll have to come up with a better counter than that I'm afraid.

	11-02-2003 14:08									#112
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no he isn't. He ownes the company for which he works.


AH: this however brings up an interesting question. are workers that own a part of their employer through pension funds or stocks considered middle class?

	11-02-2003 15:00									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel no he isn't. He ownes the company for which he works.

OK, poor example. But any CEO that's on a payroll would still be working class by his definition, if he pulls in a salary of $1 million a year. A rather broad definition IMO.

	11-02-2003 15:47									#114
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They get lots of shares and stock options, as well.

I do see your point .

	11-02-2003 23:18									#115
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An interesting fact about "pure communism," or rather "pure Marxism," is that it would bring about the end of professional musicians and artists. Note that I do not mean propagandists, as there would always be a demand for them. According to Marx, artists don't produce anything with a direct value, so they should put away their paints and join a factory or they can just starve as they are just parasites.

Also, Marx also opposed families as a unit, and was a fan of the "free love" idea. Seems a little dangerous to me, not to mention a good way of dehumanizing people. Remove their sense of the smallest community unit known, so that they can be corralled into pens and taught that its the best way to live, and then you will have their loyalty. If they have no dependants, they'll dedicate themselves to the good of the state community, where the good of the state community is decided by the revolutionary Big Brothers.

1984 was right, the only way a communist nation can survive is when it's in a state of national crisis, and thus all are convinced of the need to sacrifice personal and familial needs to ensure the long-term survival of the state.

	11-02-2003 23:28									#116
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Capitalism is murder.

	11-02-2003 23:37									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Iron Chancellor An interesting fact about "pure communism," or rather "pure Marxism," is that it would bring about the end of professional musicians and artists. Note that I do not mean propagandists, as there would always be a demand for them. According to Marx, artists don't produce anything with a direct value, so they should put away their paints and join a factory or they can just starve as they are just parasites.

That's just wrong. You are just making an assumption here. Communism can be whatever we make it. There is no reason what so ever that communism should be the death of art.

quote: Originally posted by Iron Chancellor Also, Marx also opposed families as a unit, and was a fan of the "free love" idea. Seems a little dangerous to me, not to mention a good way of dehumanizing people. Remove their sense of the smallest community unit known, so that they can be corralled into pens and taught that its the best way to live, and then you will have their loyalty. If they have no dependants, they'll dedicate themselves to the good of the state community, where the good of the state community is decided by the revolutionary Big Brothers.

He encouraged people to think of the other members of society just as they think of their own family. That doesn't mean that he wanted people to think less of their family members.

Your views are so individualistic.

	11-02-2003 23:45									#118
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@ the capitalism is murder line. That's a good one. Certainly one that Comrades across the globe would love to have everyone believe.

Capitalism is all about exchange. You don't sell much to anybody if you murder them....makes them rather poor customers, would you not agree?

And Duncan, you make your last statement as though it were a bad thing.

Why do you think individualism is bad, or wrong-headed somehow?

Individualism brings with it some *enormous* advantages, not the least of which are initiative, and personal responsibility.

Contrast this with having the Politboro telling you what to think, and wether or not you're being a good little communist. Sacrifice yourself for the good of the state, and all that (and it has always amazed me that the guys at the top are so willing to tell the guys at the bottom that they must sacrifice themselves for the good of the state when they (the ones at the top) are strangely "immune" to such sacrifices. I would point to that as being something of a built in contradiction to the whole notion, but then again, I'm home sick today, and my fevered brain may be short-circuiting....lol

-=Vel=-

	11-02-2003 23:50									#119
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Yes, I a damned individualist. Thank God for the Renaissance, and the rebirth of the classical ideals of democracy, republicanism, a love of learning, and curiosity with the world around us. Had it not been for us individualists, you would not be calling us such on the internet, using a computer, or even quoting Marx. Marx was an individual expressing his rights to freedom of speach and belief, whether you are like me and believe he was a crackpot or not doesn't change it.

Face it, individualists are those who advance society. If we all cared about the community, we'd never leave home, and still be living in villages at worst, or we'd be as over-crowded and backward as China in the 1800s.

Forced socialism is murder, extortion, and robbery.

	12-02-2003 00:02									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And Duncan, you make your last statement as though it were a bad thing. Why do you think individualism is bad, or wrong-headed somehow? Individualism brings with it some *enormous* advantages, not the least of which are initiative, and personal responsibility.

I'm not condeming initiative and personal responsibility. I'm condeming the lack of social responsibility that exists in America and where ever there are large disparities in income and wealth.

It's the protestant ethic which is keeping us from advancing our society. There is nothing wrong with family, but when you treat your non-family members like they are the enemy that's not civil at all and its no basis for society. It's barbaric.