12-02-2003 00:07									#121
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I wast trolling, Vel.

	12-02-2003 00:28									#122
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Sorry 'zazel....must be the nyquil....

And Duncan....yes, you ARE condemning individuality. That lies at the core of the highly centralized, monolithic state that is communism.

The state controls everything.

Individuals are called upon to sacrifice themselves, their individuality TO the state, cos the state, in all its wisdom and benevolence, knows what is best for you.

And when you do this, you remove, *by definition* any possibility of personal responsibility.

Same with innovation. No reward for it, so why bother? Ahhh, but Communism's answer to that has always been a gun to the head, and yes, that DOES lead to innovation, but is that how you want to live your life? Do what the state tells you to do, and if you balk, we'll either kill you or send you to the Gulag.

No thanks.

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 00:32									#123
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quote: I'm not talking about people who save their money to use for retirement or vacation, but people who borrow money, invest that money in some industry, employ a bunch of people to do the work for them, and then live like a fat cat are cheats.

And here we get to the core of the ideology: Anyone who starts a business is a "fat cat cheat."

The people who get jobs because the "fat cat cheat" stuck his neck out to get a loan & start a company are being "exploited."

So let's say I invent a really good (inexpensive, practical, whatever) solar-powered car. I then go out and borrow a bunch of money, 'cause I cannot afford to start an automobile company, and I set up "RTE Motors." RTE Motors builds a factory and hires employees. The solar car is a hit, and RTE Motors makes lots of money. I'm now a "fat cat cheat."

Does not compute. I took a risk: the company could have failed, resulting in my failure to pay off the loan, resulting in bankruptcy for me. The reward for my risk is (partial) ownership of the company, and therefore lots of money if the company does well (thus providing me with a lot of incentive to run the business well).

-Arrian

	12-02-2003 00:37									#124
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Arrian, obviously the proper thing to do would be to ignore the personal risk, and simply turn the company over to the workers you are exploiting.

Just give it to them.

Never mind that they have no real incentive to make it succeed (since it's not their name on the banknote).

Never mind that if it fails, you'll be in jail, and they'll simply go elsewhere for employment.

It's for the good of the state man, suck it up!

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 00:39									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Individuals are called upon to sacrifice themselves, their individuality TO the state, cos the state, in all its wisdom and benevolence, knows what is best for you. And when you do this, you remove, *by definition* any possibility of personal responsibility. -=Vel=-

Personal responsibility does not have to be diferent from social responsibility. This is only a Protestant ethic. It is really unique to America.

When personal responsibility is separated from social responsibility the results are a survival of the fittest, classist, elitist mentality. It is precisely that mentality that holds America back.

	12-02-2003 00:42									#126
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Vel, you are confusing it with Fascism.

I lived in the Soviet Union, and so did my parents. They weren't no drones, and no robots.

quote: Same with innovation. No reward for it, so why bother? Ahhh, but Communism's answer to that has always been a gun to the head, and yes, that DOES lead to innovation, but is that how you want to live your life? Do what the state tells you to do, and if you balk, we'll either kill you or send you to the Gulag.

that was during Stalin. when Stalin died, everyone knew what happened, and the system was changed. Sadly, no mechanism was placed to replace "fear" as the driving factor. And there are mechanisms other than that. like glory and honours.

	12-02-2003 00:42									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian And here we get to the core of the ideology: Anyone who starts a business is a "fat cat cheat." The people who get jobs because the "fat cat cheat" stuck his neck out to get a loan & start a company are being "exploited." So let's say I invent a really good (inexpensive, practical, whatever) solar-powered car. I then go out and borrow a bunch of money, 'cause I cannot afford to start an automobile company, and I set up "RTE Motors." RTE Motors builds a factory and hires employees. The solar car is a hit, and RTE Motors makes lots of money. I'm now a "fat cat cheat." Does not compute. I took a risk: the company could have failed, resulting in my failure to pay off the loan, resulting in bankruptcy for me. The reward for my risk is (partial) ownership of the company, and therefore lots of money if the company does well (thus providing me with a lot of incentive to run the business well). -Arrian

There is nothing wrong with being rewarded for your inventions. But the kind of reward that you want inventors (and their decendants) to recieve is expoitive.

	12-02-2003 00:44									#128
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Holds America back? Now THAT's an interesting view!

As I mentioned earlier, America is the single largest, most robust economy the world has ever seen.

We (and this economic system) create more millionaires per year than any nation on earth.

And yes, personal responsibility IS different from social responsibility. At least, in the real world it is. In the Communist world, there is no personal responsibility because the all-knowing state takes care of that for you, and in doing so, robs you of your liberty and freedom of choice.

That's a steep, steep price to pay, Comrade.

Too rich for my blood.

When the dust settles, I will trust in myself to know what's best for me, rather than have the state dictate what is best for me, and if I guess wrong, it's my responsibility.

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 00:46									#129
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quote: And here we get to the core of the ideology: Anyone who starts a business is a "fat cat cheat."

I am not one of them. I don't think that this sort of rethoric is good for phylosophical discussions.

	12-02-2003 00:47									#130
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I didn't neccessarily say that. Those words were put in my mouth.

	12-02-2003 00:50									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Holds America back? Now THAT's an interesting view! As I mentioned earlier, America is the single largest, most robust economy the world has ever seen. We (and this economic system) create more millionaires per year than any nation on earth. And yes, personal responsibility IS different from social responsibility. At least, in the real world it is. In the Communist world, there is no personal responsibility because the all-knowing state takes care of that for you, and in doing so, robs you of your liberty and freedom of choice. That's a steep, steep price to pay, Comrade. Too rich for my blood. When the dust settles, I will trust in myself to know what's best for me, rather than have the state dictate what is best for me, and if I guess wrong, it's my responsibility. -=Vel=-

Well, that's the selfish greed that I was talking about. And that is what prevents the leaders of America from ruling in the peoples interest, and that is what prevents America from ruling the world in the worlds interest.

	12-02-2003 00:52									#132
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I don't believe in it at all.
Most capitalists actually believe that the system is currently the most useful one, you know, "Everyone is enriched". There are those that don't give a **** about any ideology whatsoever, and are there to get the money, and the power.

The whole system needs to be changed, and blaming the burger shop manager of being a cruel opressor, doesn't only get us anywhere, it's also mostly untrue.

	12-02-2003 00:54									#133
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Let's take a microcosm example, shall we? Limit it to four people.....Duncan, Azazel, Arrian, and Vel.

We're off exploring some remote part of the world, and participating in a social experiment, where we are each responsible for ourselves alone...not to say we can't work as a team if we choose to, but we do not HAVE to.

Thousands of miles from anywhere, and nobody is coming to pick us up till this time next year.

A freak storm comes up and all our supplies get blown into the river (dang! We shouldn't have camped so close to the bank).

We're in the middle of nowhere, and we have only what we're carrying (incidental tools, and the clothes on our backs).

Arrian *happens to be* an ace at making fish traps.

Nobody else knows how, but he can do it like gangbusters.

Arrian offers to make traps for everybody, provided that we give him one fish a week for it.

Hey! That's a pretty good deal....we get a tool that we could not have made on our own, and Arrian has, with his brilliance, solved his own food crisis.

How is that exploitive? You now have a tool you otherwise would not have had, thanks to Arrian's cleverness with making fish traps.

I decide that I don't want to do anything. I don't want to try to hunt. I don't want to try to fish (refusing even Arrian's offer for a fish trap). I just don't want to participate.

So, Comrades, will you spring to my aid and make sure I have the same opportunities as everyone else?

I don't want to work for them, of course, I just want them handed to me....cos, you know, I'm a member of the community too.

Will you go hungry, not eat enough to stay healthy, just to give me a share?

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 01:04									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I don't believe in it at all. Most capitalists actually believe that the system is currently the most useful one, you know, "Everyone is enriched". There are those that don't give a **** about any ideology whatsoever, and are there to get the money, and the power. The whole system needs to be changed, and blaming the burger shop manager of being a cruel opressor, doesn't only get us anywhere, it's also mostly untrue.

Opression is not the best word. but expoitation is a very good one, and scientifically verifiable.

	12-02-2003 01:09									#135
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Vel,

I don't think anyone would make you starve, even the Americans.

The thing is will Arrian be sitting on his ass all day while we fish? Will he eventually demand that we scratch his back all the time too, just because he can make the fish hooks.

	12-02-2003 01:13									#136
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Originally posted by Ozz Maybe cause the US set up the U.N in the first place. What exactly does that have to do with agreeing to treaties that you don't believe are in your best interests to ratify?

	12-02-2003 01:14									#137
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Who knows what Arrian will do? Maybe he'll sit around, maybe he won't. But should that be part of the equation? Should that (what Arrian does with his time) be a factor in whether or not you want a fish trap for the price he named? How is what Arrian does with his day AT ALL relevant to your decision to accept his offer?

If anything, in the example above, *I* am the one exploiting all of you.

Arrian contributed by making it possible for you to catch more fish.

You and Azazel contribute by using his tool (and other means at your disposal) to catch fish.

I'm....waiting for my share.

Who's the exploiter in that scenario?

And further, if you DO give me a share, then yep....you are living up to your communist ideals....the state (all of us) comes before the individual.

If you don't....then you've just demonstrated that you don't really believe what you say you believe.

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 01:14									#138
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK That's just wrong. You are just making an assumption here. Communism can be whatever we make it. There is no reason what so ever that communism should be the death of art.

Yes there is, musicians rely on a free market system in order to ply their trade. I'm a musician, and have in the past done so professionally. But I can't just go to some music "factory" and get a job. If I want to earn a living from it, I have to take the initiative to set up my own business, and find my own work.

quote: Your views are so individualistic.

And that's why your utopia will never take place, he's just being a typical human. You can't expect 6 billion unique individuals to conform to one single way of life, or thought process.

	12-02-2003 01:19									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Yes there is, musicians rely on a free market system in order to ply their trade. I'm a musician, and have in the past done so professionally. But I can't just go to some music "factory" and get a job. If I want to earn a living from it, I have to take the initiative to set up my own business, and find my own work.

As a musician you should be more creative than that. Are you saying that music would die just because of a lack of free market? I see no reason for that.

	12-02-2003 01:20									#140
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I didn't say that all hiring is exploitation. It's the current way things are done, and many people are ****ed up in the process, by shortsighteness, for example. Just look at the bubble. You had this period of relative prosperity, climbing share prices. Do you think that the capital came from thin air? It is the investment of people, some of them very rich people, and some are like you and me, having a pension fund. All that money was released into the market. But since most of these companies had no sound financial model, this lie came to an end. Now, there are some people that got very rich, and lots of people who became a whole lot poorer.

Private Sector lacks the longsightness of govt. It's in it's nature, being private, and seeking immedeate profits.

A government doesn't and shouldn't think that way, and should not try to increase 'profits', but to create a strong economical fundament. I think that this should be done by creating industries, predicting the supply because of the fact that the same system creates the demand .
It should be done by constantly streamlining the govt. according to scientific models, keeping an independent media that would detect malfunctions, creating a variety of products by competing designs, that would shift production capabilities according to demand.

It should be done by creating the correct number of specialist to deal with the challenges that are planned in the future.

And it could be done.

Ask me any question about my system, about percieved flaws in it.

	12-02-2003 01:20									#141
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If I can make fish hooks, and that is the basis upon which I am receiving a benifit, then I'm clearly not "sitting on my ass" am I? I'm MAKING THE FISH HOOKS.

quote: I didn't neccessarily say that. Those words were put in my mouth.

Yes, as a matter of fact you DID say that. Here, I'll quote you... oh, wait, I already did that a few posts ago. You said that people who borrow money, invest it in an industry and hire employees are cheats. I put no words in your mouth. I quoted you.

Vel,

A commie would say that if I can make fish hooks, I should make them and give them away so we could all catch fish and eat. In that type of survival situation, I probably would do just that, trusting that if another situation came up for which one of the other 3 people had a skill, I would benifit from the same goodwill.

-Arrian

	12-02-2003 01:24									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Who knows what Arrian will do? Maybe he'll sit around, maybe he won't. But should that be part of the equation? Should that (what Arrian does with his time) be a factor in whether or not you want a fish trap for the price he named? How is what Arrian does with his day AT ALL relevant to your decision to accept his offer? If anything, in the example above, *I* am the one exploiting all of you. Arrian contributed by making it possible for you to catch more fish. You and Azazel contribute by using his tool (and other means at your disposal) to catch fish. I'm....waiting for my share. Who's the exploiter in that scenario? And further, if you DO give me a share, then yep....you are living up to your communist ideals....the state (all of us) comes before the individual. If you don't....then you've just demonstrated that you don't really believe what you say you believe. -=Vel=-

Ok, here is how it would go according to communist theory.

True you would decide not to fish for hooks, but you would not do so until Arrian acted selfishly and started exploiting us. We would all decide not to fish for hooks and demand the hooks from Arrian. Arrian would get hungry. Maybe he would fish and maybe he would give in and fork over the hooks. If he decided to let us die with out the hooks we would take the hooks from him.

	12-02-2003 01:24									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK There is nothing wrong with family, but when you treat your non-family members like they are the enemy that's not civil at all and its no basis for society. It's barbaric.

Ah yes, and the Soviets set such a good example of loving their neighbours didn't they? I guess they rolled into Chezchaslovokia because they just really, really cared about their downtrodden brothers and sisters.

(Why would any nation be given a name that no one can spell?)

	12-02-2003 01:26									#144
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quote: Private Sector lacks the longsightness of govt

- Azazel

Oh, I disagree. Not that I think the private sector is farsighted. Nope. But to say that government is farsighted is laughable. Government has an attention span that is usually between 2 and 6 years (I use that range because most elected officials in the US have terms of office ranging between 2 and 6 years). They most often do what is politically expedient in the short-term so they get reelected, not what is best for the nation long-term.

It isn't that the private sector is shortsighted and government isn't. It's that PEOPLE are shortsighted. It's a human problem.

-Arrian

	12-02-2003 01:26									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Ah yes, and the Soviets set such a good example of loving their neighbours didn't they? I guess they rolled into Chezchaslovokia because they just really, really cared about their downtrodden brothers and sisters. (Why would any nation be given a name that no one can spell?)

Willem,

Is it really fair for you to keep insisting that I'm proposing reinstating Russian style communism throughout the world when you know that I have stated clearly otherwise.

	12-02-2003 01:28									#146
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He's only looking at how the theory has been put into practice each and everytime its been praded on the world stage.

	12-02-2003 01:29									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Yes, as a matter of fact you DID say that. Here, I'll quote you... oh, wait, I already did that a few posts ago. You said that people who borrow money, invest it in an industry and hire employees are cheats. I put no words in your mouth. I quoted you.

I was specific about who I called a cheat. You generalized that

	12-02-2003 01:31									#148
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quote: True you would decide not to fish for hooks, but you would not do so until Arrian acted selfishly and started exploiting us. We would all decide not to fish for hooks and demand the hooks from Arrian. Arrian would get hungry. Maybe he would fish and maybe he would give in and fork over the hooks. If he decided to let us die with out the hooks we would take the hooks from him.

In other words, if I didn't give you the hooks for free, you'd steal them.

The example is, overall, not very good. Let's say that fish hook making is my skill. Yours is cooking - you're a good cook. Vel is good at... cleaning the fist (preparing them to be cooked. He's a wiz at it). Azazel is just brilliant at doing the actual fishing - he just knows where the fish are.

Now, it would be best if I made the hooks, Azazel fished, Vel cleaned and you cooked. Each of us brings something to the proverbial table, and we trade each other our skills and everyone wins. We all exploit each other. But that's not a market economy, so it doesn't really translate.

-Arrian

	12-02-2003 01:33									#149
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He's only looking at how the theory has been put into practice each and everytime its been praded on the world stage.

So. He's still claiming that I'm advocating the way that it has been put into practice.

In a way I understand, because he believes in a certain way that capitalism works and it never works that way.

The diference is that I'm talking about a whole diferent situation here. I'm talking about the end of nationalism. I'm talking about communism without police state.

	12-02-2003 01:34									#150
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK When personal responsibility is separated from social responsibility the results are a survival of the fittest, classist, elitist mentality. It is precisely that mentality that holds America back.

But that has nothing to do with capitalism, that's just a question of attitude, of morality. When Stalin sent all those Ukrainian farmers to their deaths or to the concentration camps, was he exercising social responsibility? And how would you describe Bill Gates recent intitiative to throw lots of money towards Third World diseases? Hardly an example of purely personal responsibilty is it?