11-02-2003 04:09									#1
	Does the U.S. need to make a new global organization with like minded nations? Remove this text

The U.N. and NATO are now both worthless, filled with petty squabling beurocrats......is it time for the U.S. to pull out of both, and found a new organization with those who are still friendly with it?

	11-02-2003 04:12									#2
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For some reason I thought this thread title had the word "naked" in it. Somewhere. Er.

	11-02-2003 04:45									#3
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France and Germany just refused military assistance to Turkey, a fellow NATO member. This will have repercussions for France and Germany in NATO, not the US. The US should stay with its friends in NATO, and just watch as France and Germany make fools of themselves by abandoning their obligations under NATO.

That said, if a Scud gets through and kills Turks because France and Germany refused AWACs and patriot missile batteries...damn. Europe will be a truly ugly mess then. How it will end up, I don't know.

The UN...just bulldoze the place.

	11-02-2003 05:07									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer France and Germany just refused military assistance to Turkey, a fellow NATO member. This will have repercussions for France and Germany in NATO, not the US. The US should stay with its friends in NATO, and just watch as France and Germany make fools of themselves by abandoning their obligations under NATO. That said, if a Scud gets through and kills Turks because France and Germany refused AWACs and patriot missile batteries...damn. Europe will be a truly ugly mess then. How it will end up, I don't know. The UN...just bulldoze the place.

Im speechless, and just so angry.......France Belgium and Germany betrayed Turkey and ALL of NATO by doing this.....I cant remember the last time something in politics made me so mad.

	11-02-2003 05:12									#5
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Like minded nations.

Let's see....

I'm afraid Nazi Germany, the Assyrian and Mongol Empires, and the Khmer Rouge are all long gone, so you are on your own.

	11-02-2003 05:16									#6
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quote: That said, if a Scud gets through and kills Turks because France and Germany refused AWACs and patriot missile batteries...damn. Europe will be a truly ugly mess then. How it will end up, I don't know.

They'll probably blame it all on the US somehow in the end . Say it was our fault for attacking "poor, poor Iraq" or some irrational crap like that.

	11-02-2003 05:19									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Like minded nations. Let's see.... I'm afraid Nazi Germany, the Assyrian and Mongol Empires, and the Khmer Rouge are all long gone, so you are on your own.

this sounds like the response of irrational hatred and/or bias against the US... if one doesnt have anythig constructive to say, or at least clever, then one should say nothing.

	11-02-2003 05:23									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman They'll probably blame it all on the US somehow in the end . Say it was our fault for attacking "poor, poor Iraq" or some irrational crap like that.

NATO is a defensive treaty, if Turkey starts an agressive war against Iraq with the US then why are France and Germany required to assist?

Surely it is those who convinced Turkey to partake of military action or provide assistance who should take measures to defend Turkey from retaliation.

	11-02-2003 05:26									#9
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The US doesn't need to make a new global organization, it is already a global organization itself...

	11-02-2003 05:38									#10
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Once this new organisation has outlived it's usefulness, it'll be subject to the same ignorant squealing as the UN is now.

	11-02-2003 05:40									#11
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I think Turkey should be kicked out of NATO untill the kurds get thier independence. Most of the turk-bashing is from France and Germany defying US imperialism, but it is also from Turkey's treatment of the kurds.

	11-02-2003 05:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman this sounds like the response of irrational hatred and/or bias against the US... if one doesnt have anythig constructive to say, or at least clever, then one should say nothing.

You'd better shut up then, eh Bro?

	11-02-2003 06:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch NATO is a defensive treaty, if Turkey starts an agressive war against Iraq with the US then why are France and Germany required to assist?

That's what I was wondering.

	11-02-2003 06:14									#14
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Yeah, France and Germany are not violating NATO unless Iraq were to attack Turkey.

	11-02-2003 06:15									#15
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We should learn a lesson from past history and not create another global organization to be a thorn in our side.

	11-02-2003 06:17									#16
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quote: We should learn a lesson from past history and not create another global organization to be a thorn in our side.

But remember, the future history might have different lessons to teach .

	11-02-2003 06:35									#17
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My Bad. I didn't hear the latest news. Appearantly Turkey put in a request to be defended by all NATO members in case they are attacked by Iraq. Germany, France and Belgium have promised to deny their request. That is certainly a crisis in NATO and a dirty spot on the reputation of those nations.

	11-02-2003 06:43									#18
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I haven't heard it put that way, Duncan. What's your source?

All the major media outlets are saying that what the countries have done is veto planning to defend Turkey in case of war with Iraq.

That still leaves the fact that there's no realistic threat of Iraq attacking Turkey unless Turkey attacks Iraq first (or allows US troops to do so from its soil). Asking for aid in case of an attack in a war that you start is a hell of a stretch for a defensive alliance.

	11-02-2003 06:47									#19
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That being said, I would still probably have sent purely defensive weapons to Turkey as a goodwill gesture.

	11-02-2003 07:01									#20
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I agree completely Frogger. Defense from unprovoked attack is one thing, whereas defense against retaliation (for an effort NATO has not endorsed) is quite another.

Btw, no one has said the US can't send AWACs, Patriots, and whatever else the US wants to send to Turkey. Go ahead and defend your partners US. You don't need NATO for that!

	11-02-2003 07:03									#21
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Frogger, if I understand correctly, in the event of war with Iraq, Iraq might launch Scuds into Turkey, possibly w/ bio or chemical weapons. Turkey requested AWACs and Patriot missiles to defend against this threat.

France, Germany and Belgium refused.

They would never have refused Spain or Norway...it's almost racist, though I hate to use that word.

	11-02-2003 07:07									#22
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Lancer, that's still saying "we want defence for a war that we're thinking about starting".

Turkey isn't threatened; it's Turkey that's doing the threatening.

Article 4 doesn't apply. If and when an Iraqi SCUD hits Turkey, article 5 would of course apply. But it doesn't require prescience on the part of the alliance.

Sending any help to Turkey right now is simply not mandated by the NATO charter. And once again, I would probably have done it just for the sake of goodwill, but it's not a violation of the treaty to not do it.

EDIT: spelling/grammar mistakes corrected

	11-02-2003 07:14									#23
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Lancer, I don't know about your comment wrt refusing help to other NATO nations.

The fact is that many of the Euro countries just plain don't want there to be a war. You have to admit that sending Turkey defensive aid which is only going to be necessary in the case that they declare war (whether formally or not) against a third country isn't really the role of a defensive alliance, and sends the message of backhanded support for war.

Anyhow, I thought that France was supposed to be rabidly pro-Islam and anti-Semitic. Make up your minds.

	11-02-2003 07:16									#24
	Re: Does the U.S. need to make a new global organization with like minded nations? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen The U.N. and NATO are now both worthless, filled with petty squabling beurocrats......is it time for the U.S. to pull out of both, and found a new organization with those who are still friendly with it?

What an absolute and utterly silly notion.

Anyway, unless "like minded nations" = lackeys and puppets, there is no organisation with more than one country that does not require some sort of compromise.

So go away you silly US Imperialist.

	11-02-2003 07:17									#25
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I still don't understand what is stopping the US from sending whatever military support they want to Turkey.....

So NATO is uninterested? We keep hearing how 'useless' the Europeans anyway, so why does the US care if France and Germany don't want to send help? Where is the freaking problem here?

	11-02-2003 07:17									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch NATO is a defensive treaty, if Turkey starts an agressive war against Iraq with the US then why are France and Germany required to assist?

I wondered aloud a lot about that. Particularly when it comes to NATO vs Yugoslavia.

	11-02-2003 07:18									#27
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Quick Question: what international organisation will the US declare "irrelevant" tomorrow because they do not fully support an immediate war with Iraq?

My money's on the Catholic Church or UNICEF

	11-02-2003 07:20									#28
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Ah, come on! France is trying to coerce Turkey into not supporting the US by leaving it vulnerable to Saddam's WoMD.

This is craven.

	11-02-2003 07:20									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I wondered aloud a lot about that. Particularly when it comes to NATO vs Yugoslavia.

Article 5 seems to apply, but not article 4.

In other words, they have to send help once the missiles actually start dropping on the NATO country, but the obligation is not as high as if the NATO country was being threatened with an unprovoked war (in which case the help has to be sent before the war starts).

	11-02-2003 07:21									#30
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UNICEF is already no good - a UN outfit

Catholic Church? - nah, their hats are too nice.