11-02-2003 07:21									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ah, come on! France is trying to coerce Turkey into not supporting the US by leaving it vulnerable to Saddam's WoMD. This is craven.

Yes? And?

They're telling Turkey not to let the US use its bases for war. The choice is Turkey's.

NATO is not in the business of facilitating aggressive wars.

	11-02-2003 07:23									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ah, come on! France is trying to coerce Turkey into not supporting the US by leaving it vulnerable to Saddam's WoMD. This is craven.

Excuse me Ned, but the US is trying to coerce NATO by setting up a danger.

	11-02-2003 07:28									#33
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The US is going to provide the stuff Turkey wants. Hell, it likely our stuff anyway, just assigned to NATO.

	11-02-2003 07:30									#34
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That's fine. And I still think that for appearance's sake, they should just have sent the stuff and made a speech about this not meaning support for the war, but merely being a humanitarian gesture yada yada yada

But they didn't violate the letter or the spirit of NATO in this, IMO

	11-02-2003 07:42									#35
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I'm still trying to figure out who the like minded nations are.

Let's see, there's Bush's poodle Tony Blair. After that, it gets hard. I guess the Democratic Party on some issues. Maybe Israel.

	11-02-2003 07:44									#36
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You can always play with Lithuania and Denmark.

	11-02-2003 07:45									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler I'm still trying to figure out who the like minded nations are.

This in itself is highly misleading.

The US is not a monolith - not 100% of the US people back the government's unprovoked aggression on Iraq.

	11-02-2003 07:47									#38
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I think you missed this, UR:

quote: I guess the Democratic Party on some issues

	11-02-2003 07:48									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Excuse me Ned, but the US is trying to coerce NATO by setting up a danger.

Hah! The US is the danger, huh? This is almost like saying that Britain is the danger for defending Poland.

	11-02-2003 07:49									#40
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Snooze. Who is Iraq planning to invade, again?

	11-02-2003 07:50									#41
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It's not an aggressive war! It's a defensive war! A pre-emptive defensive war!

Does the doublethink ever hurt your head, Ned, or have you perfected duckspeak?

	11-02-2003 07:51									#42
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Frogger, be serious. This is exactly like Britain defending Poland, winning, and then insisting that Nazi Germany disarm.

The danger is Nazi Germany.

	11-02-2003 07:53									#43
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12 years later? You missed the boat. The war's over, and this is a new, aggressive war (independent of its justness).

God, your attempts to twist the situation to match your analogy are extreme.

	11-02-2003 07:55									#44
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Frogger, France and Britain failed to enforce Versailles and instead engaged in a pattern of appeasement about 16 years later.

This brand of weakness caused WWII.

	11-02-2003 07:55									#45
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Turkey has no reasonable fear of Iraq as is, unless Turket chooses to attack.

The more I talk to you, the more I'm inclined to actually side with the axis of weasel and say that if the US wants to start a war they should assume all responsibility for its consequences and leave us the hell out of it.

	11-02-2003 07:56									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Frogger, France and Britain failed to enforce Versailles and instead engaged in a pattern of appeasement about 16 years later. This brand of weakness caused WWII.

Yes. And whose Sudetenland has France given away again?

	11-02-2003 07:58									#47
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Sure, Frogger. Saddam is a lovable lapdog, just like Adolf. One can negotiate binding deals with such people.

Remember Munich?

"Peace in our Time."

	11-02-2003 07:58									#48
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You're a bad caricature, Ned.

	11-02-2003 07:59									#49
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*sigh* Ned, Ned, Ned......

No Ned, the US is not in danger. The danger being set up is for Turkey. It is rather disengenuous to put Turkey at risk (with their bribed consent of course) then be critical of others for not defending them don't you think?

	11-02-2003 07:59									#50
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I gotta go, Frogger. Have a nice day.

	11-02-2003 08:00									#51
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Bye, creampuff.

	11-02-2003 08:04									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger ...the axis of weasel

Easy there Frogger.


Ned - Go ahead and attack Saddam. I think it is well past due. I just don't buy the arguments and tactics being employed by the GWB administration. Quite frankly, the longer this foreplay to war goes on the more pathetic and sad GWB and his Cabinet appear. Just DO IT ALREADY!!! While you're there maybe you might want to deal with the other despots and tyrants in the region (including the US supported ones).

Good night all.

	11-02-2003 08:22									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You'd better shut up then, eh Bro?

that makes no sense

anyway, NATO is not gonna break up. It might be reorganized or somethn, but not be dissolved. Its just a bump in the road.

	11-02-2003 08:27									#54
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quote: 12 years later? You missed the boat.

i dont understand, is there a time limit?

	11-02-2003 08:46									#55
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Yes.

	11-02-2003 09:01									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger NATO is not in the business of facilitating aggressive wars.

Kosovo? Bosnia?

	11-02-2003 09:11									#57
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Both of those were set in motion by the bosnians/serbians themselves, though. The refugee crisis and border security weren't effects of the intervention; they were the causes of it.

Going above and beyond what was necessary to preserve the integrity of NATO countries is never part of the NATO mandate, and is symptomatic of the fact that the West thought for a long while after 1991 that NATO could become the template for some sort of international police force.

With the amount of influence the US exerts in NATO and the fact that it's basically composed of haves with no representation from the have nots makes me happy that idea's dying right now.

	11-02-2003 09:13									#58
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The US needs NATO a lot more than France and Germany do.

See, Brezinski, Z, "The Grand Chessboard".

	11-02-2003 09:15									#59
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Agreed on that one, ag.

I want NATO to die, but what I really want is for the US to kill it in a fit of pique.

	11-02-2003 09:23									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Frogger, be serious. This is exactly like Britain defending Poland, winning, and then insisting that Nazi Germany disarm. The danger is Nazi Germany.

How come somebody always brings up the Nazis? Do they know nothing of Godwin's law?