11-02-2003 10:52									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Which one was that? I've been busy rebutting this horribly gauche crowd of yankees and have sort of lost track of things...

[W]hy is France even allowed to take part in the military decisions of the alliance given the fact that they aren't part of the military structure?

	11-02-2003 10:53									#92
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK This is where I believe that you are wrong frogger. Letting your allies use your territory is not an act of war. The very thought is ridiculous. That is what allies do. Other allies have US troops there too. If someone were to attack them should not NATO defend that country.

?

You make no sense. Allowing somebody to use your territory to launch attacks into a third country is most definitely an act of war. Saying it's not is ridiculous.

You should probably read the text of NATO's mandate, duncan. It's available at www.nato.int (IIRC)

If NATO were to include a right-of-passage for all situations and at all times then it would become, ipso facto, an open-ended offensive military alliance.

	11-02-2003 10:57									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc [W]hy is France even allowed to take part in the military decisions of the alliance given the fact that they aren't part of the military structure?

The answer is: because they broke things off in 1960(ish) and the rest of NATO was more eager for the appearance of unanimity than the US apparently is now.

Also, IIRC France is still bound by NATO mandates for defense of allies etc.; it's just that their troops are not as fully integrated into the command structure as everybody else's are.

I may be wrong on the last point, though.

Personally, I don't really care about the internal structure of NATO, because it's becoming obvious that it's going to die soon.

	11-02-2003 10:59									#94
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Frogger,

Why don't you point to me where you want me to look.

The way that I always saw it. Using your allies territory is perfectly legal and its the way the game is played. The allied nation does not declare war by allowing this. For sure Turkey is not declaring war on Iraq.

France is not honoring the alliance by not promising to defend Turkey.

	11-02-2003 11:01									#95
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I think this is a great idea - call it the Warsaw Pact.

	11-02-2003 11:07									#96
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Yes, we've been left out of all these Axes (Germany has already been in three, if you include the original). No one tops the US. We ought to start a new Axis.

	11-02-2003 11:08									#97
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Duncan, you really don't know what you're talking about here. Allowing the use of your territory for attacks against a third country have always been regarded as an act of war. Always. Otherwise, you would be placed in the ridiculous position of having untouchable enemy troops who were free to launch attacks against you, something US forces made a big show about, if you recall, during Viet Nam. And in that instance, the countries in question weren't even allowing the use of their territory; they were just pretty much powerless to stop it.

And if not, what was the justification for the recent war against Afghanistan?

p.s.: even movements of troops not involveing attacks on third countries aren't automatically allowed by NATO. The US and Canada just recently signed a bilateral agreement which would allow the possibility of moving troops onto each other's soil, given a case-by-case agreement to the movement. If the US were to move troops on Canadian soil without our permission then NATO or no NATO it would be an act of war. We have the right to say no to movement of foreign troops on our territory if we feel it threatens us, if we feel it's unnecessary, or if we're even feeling in a pissy mood and just plain want to say no.

	11-02-2003 11:15									#98
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I'm looking at the articles of NATO right now and I'm not seeing what you are talking about. Plus I heard something on the radio today that contradicts what you are saying. Couple that with the fact that I understood things differently than you in the first place and you may see why I doubt the validity of what you are saying.

I didn't say that an ally could use another allies territory whenever it wanted. I just said that nations have the right to allow their allies to occupy their territory without declaring war on that nations enemies.

	11-02-2003 11:26									#99
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Admin. officials are all over the TV saying that the fact that NATO as an allience said no meant nothing because all the assets asked for oculd be gotten to Turkey thorugh bilateral agreements between states that happen to also be in NATO. Which means that the US did not have to ng the issue p to NATOn inorder to get the defenses Turkey might need. Which lead me to believe that what the US wanted was political backing from NATO including having France and Germany basically say war is inevitable (which would run counter to thier UN moves) since these assets must be sent to Turkey. It was manufactured political theater and it leads no where positive.

Dino:

I think Frogger is correct about France having all the status of a full member and is bound by the treatyeven if tis military is not fully coordinated. interestingly, I saw Perle in Lou Dobbs say that the allience might have to rethink Frances position due to this 'act', specially since, "since they are not part of the fully integrated command, they share none of the risk" and that "other members would no longer tolerate this double standard" (to paraphrase as best as I can). Of course, this comes from the same man who stated not too long ago that France was no longer the same type of US ally as before, whatever that meant.

	11-02-2003 11:27									#100
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Duncan:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethic...ggression.shtml

quote: the action of a State in allowing its territory to be used by another State for perpetrating an act of aggression against a third State

	11-02-2003 11:39									#101
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ok, your right. I stand corrected.

	11-02-2003 11:40									#102
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I didn't say that an ally could use another allies territory whenever it wanted. I just said that nations have the right to allow their allies to occupy their territory without declaring war on that nations enemies.

Sure. Right up until their territory is used as a staging point for attacks. Then they're as much a belligerent as the one whose troops were used is.

	11-02-2003 11:40									#103
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God, it's late.

Nighty night.

	11-02-2003 21:00									#104
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I think it's safe to say that WWII is the last time that we will save their ass.

You sat out squeezing every frickin' dime out of the UK
until they were totally broke. Then you started lend-
lease so they could defend the world from Hilter.

The only ass you saved was yer own when the Japanese attacked you. In fact in was the Japanese
who saved Europe by getting the States off it's
nickle-counting cowardly ass.

	11-02-2003 21:03									#105
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God, that's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

	11-02-2003 21:18									#106
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The impression that the US saved anyone's "ass" is one that has credence only in the US and with Europeans who are trying to curry favour with the US.

Let's see. WW1 - turned up late, when most of the shouting was over.

WW2 - turned up late again after letting the Europeans go at each other for three years in the hope they would wear each other out and leave the US as the global boss.

Let's face it, the Russians were more help.

	11-02-2003 21:26									#107
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK God, that's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

In the way it is, but it is what happened. The US was pacifist in 1939-41. Roosevelt was the hawk, but he didn't have the American people behind him. Just prior to the Japanese attack, polls showed that 73% of Americans were opposed to getting involved in the war in Europe.

	11-02-2003 21:28									#108
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What?! Holy ****! We saved their ass from the Russians. The Russians were coming to get them. Are you aware of any of this?

	11-02-2003 21:32									#109
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Ned, I didn't say we were in a hurry to save their ass. I just said we saved thier ass. Can you blame us for doubting whether we should do it?

I'm a little pissed about this. We spilled our blood on that continent to liberate those ungratefull jerks. They have completely forgoten about it. I don't think these other guys are French, but they seem to be ignorant of things.

	11-02-2003 21:40									#110
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK What?! Holy ****! We saved their ass from the Russians. The Russians were coming to get them. Are you aware of any of this?

When were they at war with the Russians? The UK and
the USSR were allies before the US was pushed into WW2 by Japan.

The Russians never occupied any land without agreement with Britain. That is why they never entered Greece.

	11-02-2003 21:43									#111
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I'm a little pissed about this. We spilled our blood on that continent to liberate those ungratefull jerks. They have completely forgoten about it. I don't think these other guys are French, but they seem to be ignorant of things.

Before you get "pissed" get your facts right.

You spilled your "blood" in Europe to defeat the Axis
after they attacked you.

Leave the Heroic rescuers role to the Commonwealth.

Edit: spelling

	11-02-2003 21:57									#112
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We didn't have to invade Europe. You even said yourself that the Russians could have taken the Germans by themselves. We didn't even invade Europe until the tide had turned on the Eastern front.

If you seriously believe that the USSR would not have 'liberated' all of Europe if we wouldn't have invaded Normandy you need more help than I'm willing to give you here.

Good day

	11-02-2003 23:00									#113
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK We didn't have to invade Europe. You even said yourself that the Russians could have taken the Germans by themselves. We didn't even invade Europe until the tide had turned on the Eastern front. If you seriously believe that the USSR would not have 'liberated' all of Europe if we wouldn't have invaded Normandy you need more help than I'm willing to give you here. Good day

We certainly did need to invade europe and Africa. The Russians would have had a much worse time with Rommel and the elite Africa Corps and Kelselring's ltalian Army in Russia. It was close as is.

The Russians would have lost if not for the British
Fighting and British and American supplies. (More
British supplies went to Russia until 1943 then US)

Anyways we're drifting.

Does the U.S. need to make a new global organization with like minded nations?

Yes, But I would hardly call The US and Israel a "global organization"

	12-02-2003 01:10									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Ned, I didn't say we were in a hurry to save their ass. I just said we saved thier ass. Can you blame us for doubting whether we should do it? I'm a little pissed about this. We spilled our blood on that continent to liberate those ungratefull jerks. They have completely forgoten about it. I don't think these other guys are French, but they seem to be ignorant of things.

Yeah, Ducan, I agree. We not only saved France twice from the Germans, but we saved the Germans from the Russians.

Now they stab us in the back. The stab of a friend who owes you is most unkind stab of all.

Et tu Brute?

	12-02-2003 02:36									#115
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Snooze. What a bunch of bullshit.

The Commonwealth nations poured their blood out in hundreds of thousands from 1914 and 1939 onwards. You see us being self-righteous twits when the French do something we don't like and proclaim how we saved their ass in WWI&II?

In the case of WWII it was the self-evident right thing to do, and you should expect no reward other than ridding the world of Hitler. Your play on gratefulness for the sacrifices of your grandfathers is pathetic.

My grandfathers both served from 1940 onwards, giving up 5+ years of their life and facing danger in Italy, Britain and on the North Atlantic. But France doesn't owe me anything because of it.

	12-02-2003 04:34									#116
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Maybe they could get some deck chairs off the Titanic for the first meeting of this proposed new grouping...

	12-02-2003 04:50									#117
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Add China to the French, Russian and Germans.

What's the odds of a veto now?

	12-02-2003 05:04									#118
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This new grouping could meet in a phone booth.

	12-02-2003 05:04									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Snooze. What a bunch of bullshit. The Commonwealth nations poured their blood out in hundreds of thousands from 1914 and 1939 onwards. You see us being self-righteous twits when the French do something we don't like and proclaim how we saved their ass in WWI&II? In the case of WWII it was the self-evident right thing to do, and you should expect no reward other than ridding the world of Hitler. Your play on gratefulness for the sacrifices of your grandfathers is pathetic. My grandfathers both served from 1940 onwards, giving up 5+ years of their life and facing danger in Italy, Britain and on the North Atlantic. But France doesn't owe me anything because of it.

frogger, its not just a case of us being self-righteous. The French welcomed us with open arms when we liberated them and still as we helped rebuild their country. And that where it stoped. Almost to the second.

Look at their current actions. They aren't just saying they wont back us in the war. I have no problem with that. It's that they are working against us. That is some real bullshit right there.

	12-02-2003 05:13									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Snooze. What a bunch of bullshit. The Commonwealth nations poured their blood out in hundreds of thousands from 1914 and 1939 onwards. You see us being self-righteous twits when the French do something we don't like and proclaim how we saved their ass in WWI&II? In the case of WWII it was the self-evident right thing to do, and you should expect no reward other than ridding the world of Hitler. Your play on gratefulness for the sacrifices of your grandfathers is pathetic. My grandfathers both served from 1940 onwards, giving up 5+ years of their life and facing danger in Italy, Britain and on the North Atlantic. But France doesn't owe me anything because of it.

Frogger,

We really did not have to get involved in that war. Hitler did not attack us - we attacked him with lend lease and the Atantic Charter - coupled with an embargo of his ally Japan. Had Roosevelt not put the screws to Hitler and Tojo, we would never have gotten involved.

The French owe us.

We will remember how they repaid us.