12-02-2003 05:19									#121
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China, Russia, Germany, and France. Wow! Who else could join this one? NK?

	12-02-2003 05:25									#122
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK China, Russia, Germany, and France. Wow! Who else could join this one? NK?

No, Iraq.

	12-02-2003 05:32									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Frogger, We really did not have to get involved in that war. Hitler did not attack us - we attacked him with lend lease and the Atantic Charter - coupled with an embargo of his ally Japan. Had Roosevelt not put the screws to Hitler and Tojo, we would never have gotten involved. The French owe us. We will remember how they repaid us.

Neddy-pie, I forgot how Hitler was coming across the Atlantic to invade Canada. That must be why we sent our men over.

Twit.

	12-02-2003 05:34									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Neddy-pie, I forgot how Hitler was coming across the Atlantic to invade Canada. That must be why we sent our men over. Twit.

Tell me that Canada had no legal obligation to help Britain and I will begin to believe you.

	12-02-2003 05:43									#125
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If you're that ignorant, you should perhaps choose to read a bit of Commonwealth history.


Date of declaration of war by the UK on Germany: Sept. 3, 1939

Date of declaration of war by Canada on Germany: Sept. 10, 1939

	12-02-2003 05:46									#126
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frogger, why are you bringing that up? I don't see the relevance. If you aren't mad because of France's actions fine. You can atleast see why we are.

	12-02-2003 05:55									#127
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Why I'm bringing it up is that any time a European government does something that the US doesn't like, a bunch of Americans start screaming about how much Europe owes them yada yada yada. It's starting to get pathetic.

Europeans have the right to choose their own foreign policy, and just because it doesn't align with yours doesn't mean that they're pissing in the graves of WWII soldiers.

If you wanted a vassal Europe you shouldn't have let them vote their own governments in after the Germans were defeated.

My own country was helping Europe with no more of a personal stake in a European conflict than the US had, and we were doing it starting Sept. 10, 1939, out of a conscious choice to go to war to stop a great and gathering evil and to help a friend and ally under imminent threat of attack from a territorial expansionist who would not consent to being contained.

Your country halfheartedly helped Hitler's enemies starting in 1940ish and only plunged into war after you were directly attacked.

France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark etc. owe Canada a debt of thanks for helping free them from internal and external oppressors, and no more. They don't owe us a subservient foreign policy, and they certainly don't owe you one.

	12-02-2003 06:00									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Europeans have the right to choose their own foreign policy, and just because it doesn't align with yours doesn't mean that they're pissing in the graves of WWII soldiers.

Ok, I was being dramatic. I don't do it all the time. In fact, this is the first time for me. I just think they are being irresponsibe. So is Bush.

edit: first time euro-bashing for me that is

	12-02-2003 06:29									#129
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France is doing more than making independent judgments about its own best interests. It is deliberately sabotaging American foreign policy. Even if it does not agree that Saddam is a threat to FRANCE, it should not be deliberately standing in our way if we believe it threatens AMERCIA or in Turkey's way if Turkey believes Saddam is a threat to it.

France has aligned itself AGAINST the US, the UK and Turkey in this affair.

What possible interests of France are involved that could compel it to become a virtual ally of Saddam?

OIL?

Are they placing French oil concessions ahead of the interests of their allies?

It appears to be the case.

	12-02-2003 06:35									#130
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It is doing what it can to stop a war in Iraq, which it believes is irresponsible and dangerous.

quote: France has aligned itself AGAINST the US, the UK and Turkey in this affair. What possible interests of France are involved that could compel it to become a virtual ally of Saddam? OIL?

That's less believable than the thought that the US would start pumping Iraqi oilfields and taking the money for themselves.

Nobody in France wants war. Public opinion is such that the Chirac government would be signing its own death warrant to support the US in going to war in Iraq. The fact is that you haven't succeeded in convincing the European street of the need for war, and until you do you're going to be stuck with a motley assortment of European governments that are willing to go against the judgment of their voting public. What this means is that they might not be around for long.

	12-02-2003 06:43									#131
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frogger,

There is a huge diference between not supporting us and working against us.

There are huge concequences to the world for the actions of all the governments involved. While I'm against the war, its plainly obvious that there is some justification for it. We have been working with the international community and we have shown that Iraq is in violation of UN resolution 1441. That justifies war against them. Frances actions are wrong, dangerous, and foolish.

	12-02-2003 06:49									#132
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Duncan, what you're saying is ridiculous. The French should just shut up if they don't agree with you? They should abstain instead of voting against you?

Whatever. You still want them to have a subservient foreign policy. Would you feel the US had the obligation to keep its mouth shut when the French went to war? If so, what about 1954ish in the Suez?

	12-02-2003 06:51									#133
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In other words, the American hawks here would do a lot better to actually argue for their case instead of sitting around whining that other people don't agree with them.

	12-02-2003 06:52									#134
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quote: My own country was helping Europe with no more of a personal stake in a European conflict than the US had, and we were doing it starting Sept. 10, 1939, out of a conscious choice to go to war to stop a great and gathering evil and to help a friend and ally under imminent threat of attack from a territorial expansionist who would not consent to being contained.

Frogger, America during the post WWI era were highly isolasionist. Most Americans felt we were involved in WWI, a european war, for no good reason, adn payed a high price in blood for nothing (btw, i dunno much about canada in WWI. were yalls experience similar to ours?). America didnt hold off fighting hitler because we wanted to make money off it, just politically it wasnt feasible.

The vast majority of Americans didnt see it as our war, adn didnt want American blood spilled again for a European conflict. And then, after JAPAN attacked us, we went to war against Germany, because Roosevelt had the American populace galvanized behind him. He wanted to, and tried to help the British all along, but couldnt because of the overwhelming isolasionism. Since the begining of the war, many American pilots volunteered to go to Britain and fly as British airmen, as the US could not send troops to help directly without making the home polulace furious (same thing in China too, to help against Japan), so many Americans volunteered selflessly.

The United States was not selfish in its acts, nor was it selfless, it only did what it could due to political reasons. Now im not one to gloat, and say the Euros owe us, cause i dont care. But I think its odd that you say the US has no right to act all high and mighty, when you are then turning towards making Canada look high and mighty...

	12-02-2003 06:56									#135
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I'm not trying to make Canada look high and mighty; I'm saying that I don't feel that the French owe us anything more concrete than a thank you. And neither do they owe you any more than that.

quote: France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark etc. owe Canada a debt of thanks for helping free them from internal and external oppressors, and no more. They don't owe us a subservient foreign policy, and they certainly don't owe you one.

	12-02-2003 06:58									#136
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I find it amusing that on the one hand a lot of Americans are berating the French as useless has-beens who can't defend themselves and on the other ***** and moan about them not providing military support and standing up against the US view on the subject.

	12-02-2003 07:01									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I'm not trying to make Canada look high and mighty; I'm saying that I don't feel that the French owe us anything more concrete than a thank you. And neither do they owe you any more than that. quote: France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark etc. owe Canada a debt of thanks for helping free them from internal and external oppressors, and no more. They don't owe us a subservient foreign policy, and they certainly don't owe you one.

i dont think the others are so frustrated about not getting a thanks, but rather, of France and others seemingly actilvely trying to undercut the US, almost like a political enemy. To them and others, France et al are doing this for no really giid reason, which can be argued eternally. In other words, they think is just being unfairly disagreeable for their own political gain and to hurt the US... and they should be more greatful than to try and hurt our foreign policy like an enemy or somethn

	12-02-2003 07:04									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I find it amusing that on the one hand a lot of Americans are berating the French as useless has-beens who can't defend themselves and on the other ***** and moan about them not providing military support and standing up against the US view on the subject.

We don't need their military support.

This is about their veto in both the UN and NATO. They have the power to obstruct and they are obstructing.

	12-02-2003 07:05									#139
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You've placed yourself in a position that is directly opposed to the beliefs of the European public. They don't want war in Iraq, and are willing to do something diplomatically about it.

If you hate the disagreement so much, stop pushing for a war.

	12-02-2003 07:06									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Ned We don't need their military support. This is about their veto in both the UN and NATO. They have the power to obstruct and they are obstructing.

Too bad. Their veto power isn't ceremonial, you know. It's there for them to use when they feel it should be.

	12-02-2003 07:07									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Ned We don't need their military support. This is about their veto in both the UN and NATO. They have the power to obstruct and they are obstructing.

NATO has no jurisdiction on the war in Iraq, and the French haven't vetoed anything at the UN.

	12-02-2003 07:08									#142
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quote: If you hate the disagreement so much, stop pushing for a war.

*shruggs*

or go it alone...

	12-02-2003 07:09									#143
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Go for it, then. But don't act hurt when they work against you.

	12-02-2003 07:36									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Duncan, what you're saying is ridiculous. The French should just shut up if they don't agree with you? They should abstain instead of voting against you? Whatever. You still want them to have a subservient foreign policy. Would you feel the US had the obligation to keep its mouth shut when the French went to war? If so, what about 1954ish in the Suez?

You know I'm not saying they should be subservient. I'm saying they shouldn't be combative. They are trying to enlist opposition to us. Why they hell can't they just stay out of it? It's not right for them to do this to an ally. They have no respect for the concept of alliance. And they act at their own peril.

	12-02-2003 07:39									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger In other words, the American hawks here would do a lot better to actually argue for their case instead of sitting around whining that other people don't agree with them.

I'm not arguing for war. I'm arguing about France having an irresponsible diplomatic strategy.

	12-02-2003 07:44									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I find it amusing that on the one hand a lot of Americans are berating the French as useless has-beens who can't defend themselves and on the other ***** and moan about them not providing military support and standing up against the US view on the subject.

There are huge consequences. I'm not saying that we could ever depend on France militarily, but we made huge economic investments in that country. We trade with them significantly. The worst is that changes in the diplomatic structure of the world are dangerous.

	12-02-2003 07:46									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger You've placed yourself in a position that is directly opposed to the beliefs of the European public. They don't want war in Iraq, and are willing to do something diplomatically about it. If you hate the disagreement so much, stop pushing for a war.

Like we've been saying. Why the hell should they care? It seems that they just want to impede us.

	12-02-2003 07:57									#148
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Why did you care about Suez in 1954?

	12-02-2003 08:14									#149
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I personally wasn't alive then. I don't know that much about it. It's in the past. If we were at fault two wrongs don't make a right.

	12-02-2003 09:52									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Why did you care about Suez in 1954?

It was 1956. Eisenhower was certainly pissed because France, Britain and Israel attacked without consulting him.

Eisenhower believed in detente with the USSR. This is why he turned the other cheek with they took Hungary in '56 and their client Nassar took the Suez in the same year.