11-06-2003 18:40									#121
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A lot depends on if we succeed to secure Sistine's for us through diplomatic negotiations. If we do, we can safely build Bach's first, Sistine later, and save our GA for the moment our FP core is ready and all our cities founded.

Voxes hopping to Legos Minor will also affect our plans. If they do become our neighbours, we can simply forget about the whole GA wonder triggering trouble - we will be able to trigger our GA at any time by simply having them sacrifice a warrior to our merc (all we would need is to have them keep one warrior ready and us keeping one merc ready for this occasion - possibly positioning them next to each other so that we can ask for the trigger at any time).

I believe we shall wait a bit until making a decision. For the moment, until something changes, I would consider our military the priority #1.

	11-06-2003 19:24									#122
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack For the moment, until something changes, I would consider our military the priority #1.

I agree, but don't you think that Jackson and Forkmouth could handle it alone, without Panama?

	11-06-2003 20:34									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I agree, but don't you think that Jackson and Forkmouth could handle it alone, without Panama?

Frankly - no, not really... Jackson and Forkmouth can spit out an attacker+defender (merc+knight) combo every 5-6 turns. As much as I hate building military units that will most probably never be used (but as a deterrent), I do not think that's enough.

	26-06-2003 22:34									#124
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Kloreep, with my recent "planning" in the Grand Defense Plan thread, can we confirm our build queues for the next 10-20 turns here?

Here is what I am currently thinking of (the first thing is always the thing being currently built in that city):

Legopolis: cathedral, then a 600-shield wonder
Jackson: horse, then worker, walls, catapult, worker, merc, worker, catapult
Farmerville: workers all the time
Panama: horse, then horse, worker, merc, worker, marketplace
Red Bricks: marketplace, then cathedral? (perhaps chopping those forests)
Forkmouth: catapult, merc, merc
Karina: Forbidden Palace
Zargonia: harbour, then galleys/caravels
Dye Fields: marketplace
Logville: workers, perhaps one settler? (chopping that forest over there)
Sharpehaven: barracks, then merc, merc
Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks?
Kloreepville: temple, then marketplace?

	27-06-2003 02:54									#125
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All plans not commented on

quote: Jackson: horse, then worker, walls, catapult, worker, merc, worker, catapult

How about Horse, worker, walls, Merc, worker, Merc? (See Kloreepville)

quote: Farmerville: workers all the time

Up till a point, yes... however, it should start building settlers close to the FP's completion. The temple was rushed on turn 103, so I think Settler building should start ~15 turns from now.

quote: Panama: horse, then horse, worker, merc, worker, marketplace

Agreed with everything up till the market. Let's see where we are then; right now, I'd love to put Panama on infrastructure.

quote: Logville: workers, perhaps one settler? (chopping that forest over there)

I'd say keep it on workers. The city's growing faster than it can build workers anyhow, so let's stick with the most efficient pop-draining unit.

quote: Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks?

Walls: Dunno about Barracks; we might want to build some Cats first.

quote: Kloreepville: temple, then marketplace?

Kloreepville isn't going to be pulling in all that much commerce and would need an aqueduct & harbor to. But it'll be a fairly high-production city (13 spt before corruption at pop 6, 10 spt before corruption at pop 5), so I think it should produce some catapults after the temple, then a Barracks, then some units.

	27-06-2003 10:19									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep How about Horse, worker, walls, Merc, worker, Merc? (See Kloreepville)

I believe this would not work too weel, unless we artificially slowed down the city growth. Walls shall take 2 turns, Merc 3 turns, that's 5 turns and 5 turns is the time Jackson needs to fill its foodbox in. That was my primary reason to include the 2-turn cat there...

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Up till a point, yes... however, it should start building settlers close to the FP's completion. The temple was rushed on turn 103, so I think Settler building should start ~15 turns from now.

Agreed.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Agreed with everything up till the market. Let's see where we are then; right now, I'd love to put Panama on infrastructure.

And agreed - that marketplace I put there was to mark the beginning of the "infrastructure period" in Panama. Marketplace, then Cathedral & Library (or the other way round).

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I'd say keep it on workers. The city's growing faster than it can build workers anyhow, so let's stick with the most efficient pop-draining unit.

With the forest chop, one settler would be as efficient as two workers (as far as draining pop goes).

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Kloreepville isn't going to be pulling in all that much commerce and would need an aqueduct & harbor to. But it'll be a fairly high-production city (13 spt before corruption at pop 6, 10 spt before corruption at pop 5), so I think it should produce some catapults after the temple, then a Barracks, then some units.

I have one problem with building cats (or any other military units) in Kloreepville - and that is I hate building regular units, even if they are just arty. With barracks in Panama, Sharpehaven, and Forkmouth, building barracks in Kloreepville, too (read: making vondrack happy about Kloreepville building military units) seems like a bit of overkill at this moment (later on, I believe all of our coastal cities should have barracks, strictly for defense purposes.

So, considering Kloreepville is part of the "first city ring" around Legopolis, I would suggest using its production potential mostly for infrastructure building. If aqueduct is what's needed to make a marketplace viable, then let's start with an aqueduct... once the happiness wonder in Legopolis is finished (and that should be in ~30-35 turns), we shall need it.

Or, we can start with a harbour - not because of bringing in more commerce (only three coastal tiles), but to have a second decent harbour city. I don't think that Zargonia will be enough to fully cover our naval production anyway (plus, it will need some time to work on its infrastructure a bit, too), so another harboured city would be nice.

	27-06-2003 11:15									#127
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Speaking of Zargonia: looking t the save I noticed that this city will always be quite corrupted, with or without FP. We ought to build a Courthouse here at some point (the sooner the better). I think the same goes for Tarzania and Forkmouth.

	30-06-2003 06:14									#128
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I can finally respond... been busy with tennis this weekend.

quote: Originally posted by vondrack quote: Originally posted by Kloreep How about Horse, worker, walls, Merc, worker, Merc? (See Kloreepville) I believe this would not work too weel, unless we artificially slowed down the city growth. Walls shall take 2 turns, Merc 3 turns, that's 5 turns and 5 turns is the time Jackson needs to fill its foodbox in. That was my primary reason to include the 2-turn cat there...

Okay, let's go with your queue.

quote: quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I'd say keep it on workers. The city's growing faster than it can build workers anyhow, so let's stick with the most efficient pop-draining unit. With the forest chop, one settler would be as efficient as two workers (as far as draining pop goes).

True. So, let's go for it; the upcoming Logville worker can do the chop.

quote: quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Kloreepville isn't going to be pulling in all that much commerce and would need an aqueduct & harbor to. But it'll be a fairly high-production city (13 spt before corruption at pop 6, 10 spt before corruption at pop 5), so I think it should produce some catapults after the temple, then a Barracks, then some units. I have one problem with building cats (or any other military units) in Kloreepville - and that is I hate building regular units, even if they are just arty. With barracks in Panama, Sharpehaven, and Forkmouth, building barracks in Kloreepville, too (read: making vondrack happy about Kloreepville building military units) seems like a bit of overkill at this moment (later on, I believe all of our coastal cities should have barracks, strictly for defense purposes. So, considering Kloreepville is part of the "first city ring" around Legopolis, I would suggest using its production potential mostly for infrastructure building. If aqueduct is what's needed to make a marketplace viable, then let's start with an aqueduct... once the happiness wonder in Legopolis is finished (and that should be in ~30-35 turns), we shall need it.

I didn't realize how deep this loathing of non-vet units goes, if it extends to rankless Arty!

But seriously, let's use non-Barracks cities for our Cats as much as possible. Jackson may need to build some to go along with its growth cycle, but the other cities shouldn't waste their barrack's time on it, IMO. I'm not sure how good an investment an Aqueduct would be; I certainly don't think we should start on one until we're set on building Bach's within turns of its completion.

While I agree Kloreepville isn't the best city to be tied up with units, it's a better choice than Panama, which I think should be relieved of its burden ASAP so it can build some more infrastructure. (Panama is a river city, Kloreepville isn't; hence, Panama gets more commerce and won't need 100 shields to grow beyond size 6. Both current and future potential lean toward infrastructure in Panama IMO.)

quote: Or, we can start with a harbour - not because of bringing in more commerce (only three coastal tiles), but to have a second decent harbour city. I don't think that Zargonia will be enough to fully cover our naval production anyway (plus, it will need some time to work on its infrastructure a bit, too), so another harboured city would be nice.

A harbor wouldn't be a bad choice either. But I definitely think Kloreepville should go for units right now, rather than lots of buildings.

	30-06-2003 10:55									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I didn't realize how deep this loathing of non-vet units goes, if it extends to rankless Arty!

Would you believe I have never noticed artillery units had no ranks? Was it so from the very first version of Civ3?

Obviously... I stand corrected here and you are of course right that non-barracked cities should be used to build arty pieces as much as possible.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Jackson may need to build some to go along with its growth cycle, but the other cities shouldn't waste their barrack's time on it, IMO.

Actually, with this MAJOR new discovery of rankless artillery I am all for using Jackson for 30 shield vet units only, leaving cats to non-barracked cities. We do have means to make Jackson grow +1F only, generating +12/+9spt (working cattle, two bonus grasses, one hill, and one coast all the time, alternating the sixth labourer between a hill and a coast... 12+9+9=30, which is just perfect). One "life cycle" will then be three units and one worker. Sweet.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep While I agree Kloreepville isn't the best city to be tied up with units, it's a better choice than Panama, which I think should be relieved of its burden ASAP so it can build some more infrastructure. (Panama is a river city, Kloreepville isn't; hence, Panama gets more commerce and won't need 100 shields to grow beyond size 6. Both current and future potential lean toward infrastructure in Panama IMO.)

Agreed.

	30-06-2003 11:15									#130
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After learning about rankless artillery, I believe we should revise the build queues to use the barracked cities for building vet non-arty units only (sorry for the mess I caused):

Legopolis: cathedral, then a 600-shield wonder (most probably Bach's)
Jackson: worker, then horse, merc, walls, catapult, worker, merc, worker, catapult merc or a city improvement
Farmerville: workers, later settlers
Panama: horse, then horse, worker, merc, worker, marketplace
Red Bricks: marketplace, then cathedral? (perhaps chopping those forests)
Forkmouth: catapult horse, merc, merc
Karina: Forbidden Palace
Zargonia: harbour, then galleys/caravels
Dye Fields: marketplace
Logville: worker, then settler (chopping the forest)
Sharpehaven: barracks, then merc, merc
Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks one or two catapults
Kloreepville: temple, then marketplace one or two catapults

	01-07-2003 19:40									#131
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With GoW now at 14 cities and RP having just built their 13th city and with GS already seemingly well ahead of us, I think that we need to move settlers up in the priority list as we don't want to fall behind in our city amounts (especially as we have the most room left) - especially as we are using a settler up with the New Voice construction.

We need to get Port Hammer and Suez done very soon and then concentrate on getting some of those southern cities built before the FP is completed in less than 25 turns.

	01-07-2003 20:13									#132
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The number of cities itself is more of a disadvantage, rather than of an advantage... mostly because of the corruption/waste levels. Keep in mind that despite being on par at best as far as the number of cities goes, we are MUCH stronger economically than any Bobian nation. Plus, in our case, more cities also mean more territory to defend -> more military needed. Considering the fact that newly founded cities can/will contribute little to nothing to our economy (until the FP is in place), I do not believe we should speed up the settler production too much immediately.

Namely, Port Hammer will undoubtedly have to wait for the FP completion, as that site lacks production potential. Suez aka Invoice/Benelux has a pretty high strategic importance, that's true, but I would time its foundation to about ~20 turns from now, too.

The settler from Logville (done in ~15-20 turns) should found either Tiberium or Crossing) and I assume we will have 2-3 more settlers ready to plant new cities right after Karina completes its FP build. I would actually try to arrange things so that we found a couple of new cities very shortly after the FP completion, but not earlier.

Farmerville should start producing settlers once it is able to operate at full pop 6 (that is, after its poprush unhappiness wears off - which should be in about 5 turns, as the poprush was done on turn 103).

	01-07-2003 21:42									#133
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As we are commercial we do have a small advantage regarding the corruption/waste from city amounts. That being said we do need to continue to fill up our area to discourage any thought of landing here

As for our huge economic advantage , don't forget that RP is in monarchy right now - I suspect that our advantage in Productivity and GNP will almost disappear when they switch to Republic, which will probably be after next turn. We should still hold an advantage in Mfg goods but only because RP probably hasn't done as much mining as we have recently.

As for more territory, Port Hammer actually helps us as it is near our core - we can even not connect it up completely and so have Panama become an upgrade center and Suez is strategic and already has a defensive unit there anyway.

As for building before the FP is complete, we can use the cities to build workers and already have them in place and have them at a decent population sooner than waiting for the FP. Initally I am only talking about Quanto, ahmyfoot and Tiberium - the others in the deep south can wait until well after the FP - even some of the ones I mention can wait until around the time of the FP, but a good goal is to keep pace with the other civs - besides we need to replace our settler that is building New Voice anyway.

	02-07-2003 00:18									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As for our huge economic advantage , don't forget that RP is in monarchy right now - I suspect that our advantage in Productivity and GNP will almost disappear when they switch to Republic, which will probably be after next turn. We should still hold an advantage in Mfg goods but only because RP probably hasn't done as much mining as we have recently.

I seriously doubt this. Our huge MfgGoods & GNP advantage over the #3 (need not be the RPers, btw) is actually much more likely the result of us being industrious, of us having LOTS of workers, and of us having lots of high pop cities.

Besides, the corr/waste corruption difference between Monarchy & Republic is said to be much smaller than, say, the difference between the Despotism & Monarchy. (I think it was Kloreep mentioning this)

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As for more territory, Port Hammer actually helps us as it is near our core - we can even not connect it up completely and so have Panama become an upgrade center and Suez is strategic and already has a defensive unit there anyway.

No arguments over the importance of Suez... just that every city that is going to be placed closer to Legopolis than Karina will quite likely bite a bit out of the Karina's production, delaying the FP completion there. And the effect of the FP will be HUGE (MUCH bigger than the Mon->Rep switch for RPers, e.g.)

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As for building before the FP is complete, we can use the cities to build workers and already have them in place and have them at a decent population sooner than waiting for the FP. Initally I am only talking about Quanto, ahmyfoot and Tiberium - the others in the deep south can wait until well after the FP - even some of the ones I mention can wait until around the time of the FP, but a good goal is to keep pace with the other civs - besides we need to replace our settler that is building New Voice anyway.

As pointed out in the previous paragraph, the low or negligible production of the newly founded cities is not the problem. The problem is that they actually increase waste and corruption in our existing, productive cities (that are farther away from Legopolis than those new cities would be).

For example, Port Hammer would increase waste and corruption everywhere beyond Red Bricks... that would include Forkmouth, Farmerville (!), Zargonia, and Karina (!). I do not think founding Port Hammer would be that good idea. Suez, btw, would do pretty much the same... I do not think that rushing the foundation of new cities would help us... though if we have spare settlers, I'd not oppose settling the Southern coast (as those cities will not affect the output of our existing centers).

	07-07-2003 03:48									#135
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pp

Last edited by Kloreep on 07-07-2003 at 03:54

	07-07-2003 03:52									#136
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I just ran a sim to see what corruption founding extra cities would bring, and I was very surprised to find myself unable to find any real difference after founding Quantum, Ahhmyfoot, and Tiberium. And I was testing Karina as it will be after poprush and some improvements: six pop working the irrigated cattle, four mined hills, and a mined bonus grass. Karina didn't lose a single shield with all three of these cities founded. Commerce I wasn't watching as closely.

I'll be testing combinations with Invoice and Port Hammer now, though those are much lower on my list regardless of their corruption effects.

Here is the scenario I'm using. Please look it over if you can to make sure I didn't accidentally change something important like the OCN.

Edit: Okay, five more cities seems to be the breaking point... founding Invoice as the fourth city still left everything okay, but the fifth city I founded, Port Hammer, knocked off a shield at Karina and prevented Farmerville from reaching the 6-shield peak in its current cycle.

Given this, I'd say we should found Quantum and Ahhmyfoot ASAP (Tiberium using the Logville settler) + one northern city. I'll now see if building Port Hammer instead of Invoice is still okay.

Last edited by Kloreep on 07-07-2003 at 03:57

	07-07-2003 04:30									#137
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Okay, the results are in: Port Hammer is able to lose another Karina shield by itself, so it's definitely not a good pre-FP city. Also, I'm not sure what happened in my previous sims, but the three southern core cities + Invoice does lose Karina a shield. (probably due to being nearer to Legopolis.) However, the southern core + Abilene + Horsefish + Abilene is fine; it seems OCN isn't going anywhere for a while, only which cities are effected.

So, it may be a good idea to build a settler in Forkmouth as Sharpe was suggesting in #legoland today (though whether or not to wait for the horse is a also a question). Logville will provide the Tiberium settler, and Farmerville will be a major settler contributor too. (Since these cities don't have much of a corruption effect, I suggest we settle them ASAP.)

Edit: Also, if we build a settler instead of two workers in Panama, we can send the settler south and relieve Fville of one more settler; half the south would be settled by non-Fville settlers, leaving only 3 cities needing to be settled by Fville, so more workers could be built there.

Last edited by Kloreep on 07-07-2003 at 04:38

	07-07-2003 06:05									#138
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Based on this information and the discussion I had with Kloreep in the chatroom I think we should consider the following:

(Baring any commerce corruption difficulties that might still arise from the scenario analysis)

Forkmouth - Horse then merc then settler then courthouse - settler should be complete in 10 to 12 turns

Zargonia - Harbor then settler then galley - settler complete in 11 turns.

Farmerville - to stay building workers for longer than planned

IMHO, the Forkmouth merc should be sent down to protect either the Quanto or the ahmyfoot location and then serve as its garrison to protect it from barbs but that decision belongs to the MA.

Kloreep also mentionted the possibility of building a settler at Panama. If that remains the case, we would need to decide whether to have a 4th city location to settle or whether to stop the Logville settler and switch it to a worker (obviously we would also have to stop the forest chop if we switched to a worker).

For a 4th city, I would consider Abilene or Horsefish to be the next best choices after Quanto, ahmyfoot and Tiberium. While Horsefish would give us the horse, it wouldn't be able to irrigate until Electricity, which would slow its growth a bit unless we avoided hills. Abilene would eventually have the cattle in its boundries but not until a temple was built, but it could be irrigated through ahmyfoot.

	07-07-2003 11:31									#139
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Purely from strategic reasons - please, check what founding Crossing does to Karina. That site would be MUCH more important than any other, as it would allow us to complete our defensive "wall" on the eastern coast. As it is now, we have a serious "hole" just in the area where invasions would be likely to happen... Another city I would like to see founded right after the FP is finished would be Castlea - same reasons, but different area.

As long as we finish all planned horses and most planned mercs, I have no problem with some settlers (if they do not mess with Karina's corr/waste levels, of course).

	07-07-2003 11:42									#140
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I'd like to see a cathedral to solve the happiness problems in Panama, instead of settlers. This is an awesome commerce city and we should put it on work. After the Cathedral we ought to build here a library, market, the Collossus, etc.

	08-07-2003 09:22									#141
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack After learning about rankless artillery, I believe we should revise the build queues to use the barracked cities for building vet non-arty units only (sorry for the mess I caused): Legopolis: cathedral, then a 600-shield wonder (most probably Bach's) Jackson: worker, then horse, merc, walls, catapult, worker, merc, worker, catapult merc or a city improvement Farmerville: workers, later settlers Panama: horse, then horse, worker, merc, worker, marketplace Red Bricks: marketplace, then cathedral? (perhaps chopping those forests) Forkmouth: catapult horse, merc, merc Karina: Forbidden Palace Zargonia: harbour, then galleys/caravels Dye Fields: marketplace Logville: worker, then settler (chopping the forest) Sharpehaven: barracks, then merc, merc Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks one or two catapults Kloreepville: temple, then marketplace one or two catapults

Is this the current build plan thread? Vondrack mentioned having a build plan thread and this is the only one I could find.

	08-07-2003 11:20									#142
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Yes, this is the "quick and dirty" build queue schedule I'm using when putting together new turn plans. If Kloreep had more time, it would be done in a much neater way in the "Building Timeline" thread, I assume.

	09-07-2003 07:19									#143
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The current "quick and dirty" suggested build order:

Farmerville: workers, later settlers
Forkmouth: horse, merc, merc
Karina: Forbidden Palace
Zargonia: harbour, then galleys/caravels
Logville: worker, then settler (chopping the forest)
Sharpehaven: barracks, then merc, merc
Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks one or two catapults

Here are some updated proposals that I think should be considered (feel free to comment - I haven't completely set them in stone yet)

Farmerville: workers workers and more workers
Forkmouth: merc, settler, courthouse (chop gameforest during courthouse or leave it until cathedral)
Karina: FP (done in about 13 turns) then worker or settler to get the pop down, then aqueduct or one of mktplace/library
Zargonia: harbor then settler then caravel (hopefully)
Logville: settler then mktplace or library (we will need to get a cathedral in soon too with the wheat there)
Sharpehaven: merc merc merc

The Forkmouth, Panama, Zargonia and Logville settlers should settle: Ahmyfoot, Quanto, Tiberium and either Abilene or Invoice
Tarzania: temple, walls, catapults

	09-07-2003 11:49									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Karina: FP (done in about 13 turns) then worker or settler to get the pop down, then aqueduct or one of mktplace/library

Karina can hold itself at nil growth (and at any pop level, thanks to the 2-food grasses around it), so I think we should skip the pop units and head straight for infrastructure. Karina will be a near-uncorrupted city, after all.

quote: The Forkmouth, Panama, Zargonia and Logville settlers should settle: Ahmyfoot, Quanto, Tiberium and either Abilene or Invoice

Invoice isn't a possibility, as Karina loses a shield with all the three southern core cities (which I say to of course ), and the only settler that will be nearby for a while is Panama's, which I think should head south. It is definitely a post-FP city to settle, though; so maybe Jackson could produce a settler using a full food box, or Panama could do one again on its pop cycle.

Any southern city should be fine for a fourth, though, especially as it would likely be post-FP.

Also, I would like to propose a camp city sometime post-FP on the hill W-W of Logville. Even with both Logville and Tiberium at pop 8, there should be a grassland or two and some hills available to work, and so it would be an ideal pop-4 city (possibly pop 6 after Bach's) for artillery and pop unit production.

	09-07-2003 13:07									#145
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Agreed with Kloreep on Karina - no pop units, pure infra. Great (high-shield, high-commerce, low-corruption) site for infra.

There is one site that has not been mentioned, which I consider extremely important from the strategic point of view - Crossing. I would found that one with one of the settlers we are currently producing. Without Crossing, we have a gaping hole in our defense line on the eastern coast (and basically an "open road" to Karina). Crossing will complete the line of defense all the way from Jackson in the North to Logville in the South. It may not be the most productive and fastest growing city we will have, but its strategic value far outweights that disadvantage (IMHO).

So, I would go for Crossing first (does not affect Karina, tested by Kloreep), then Tiberium, Ahhmyfoot (if it does not affect Karina) and other cities only after the FP would be done (should be in 16 turns, not 13). But once the FP is done, let's move fast - let's have some settlers ready.

BTW, before settling more spots on the western coast, I would also found Oasis (in the center of the Farmerville, Zargonia, Crossing triangle). Reasons: no garrison needed, makes our territory contiguous, has a floodplain tile to work, close to FP.

Keep in mind that we will have to protect the new coastal cities. Founding ~5 new cities exposed to outside invasions "to be garrisoned later" would be very risky. That's why cities in our interior will be somewhat "cheaper" to found...

	09-07-2003 14:55									#146
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quote: There is one site that has not been mentioned, which I consider extremely important from the strategic point of view - Crossing. I would found that one with one of the settlers we are currently producing.

Agreed that Crossing is strategically located but it is absolutely TERRIBLE for food production with nothing but desert and hills. Its only good food source would be from a harbor.

Oasis is nearly as bad for food aside from the flood plain (didn't know it even had a flood plain down there).

I would prefer to found those cities when we can "throw away" a settler - they would be perfect for Farmerville settlers for instance.

I would be willing to consider Crossing for the Logville settler to be completed in about 17 turns.

As for post FP, actually most of these cities are post-FP. The Panama settler won't get down to the south for another 11 turns, the Zargonian settler won't be down in the south for another 16 turns, and the Forkmouth settler won't be down there for another 17 or so turns. Meanwhile the FP will be complete in 13 to 14 turns.

	09-07-2003 20:00									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Agreed that Crossing is strategically located but it is absolutely TERRIBLE for food production with nothing but desert and hills. Its only good food source would be from a harbor.

That's not 100% true - there is one regular grassland, which can be irrigated with relative ease (Logville wheat, then N & NE). That would allow Crossing to grow up to pop 4, working the irrigated grassland and three hills - that's not bad at all, at least not for the first ~20-25 turns. We should be able to build a harbour there quite easily then - and with a harbour, Crossing will be a decent pop 6 city (up to pop 11 with an aqueduct). In my eyes, this is enough to make its strategic value outweight the fact that we would be able to build a city somewhere else with a better long-term growth potential. Seeing that "road to Karina", which is going to be the heart of our second core just makes me feel... well, I would rather have it closed ASAP.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Oasis is nearly as bad for food aside from the flood plain (didn't know it even had a flood plain down there).

The food situation in Oasis (its site is SW of the moutain) is actually perfectly fine. Aside from the floodplains (4 food/t), there will be three instantly available grasslands (NW-NW, NE-NE, N-NE) and two choppable forests (N, N-NW). The two forest chops would help us to speed up the construction of the most basic infrastructure, plus we have two fully improved hills that Oasis could occasionally borrow from Zargonia. The floodplain would help it grow to a reasonable pop fast enough.

Plus, Oasis would be on a river - no aqueduct needed to grow past pop 6, lots of commerce. And, as is the case with Crossing, helps to fill in a gap in our territory, making it easier to defend.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As for post FP, actually most of these cities are post-FP. The Panama settler won't get down to the south for another 11 turns, the Zargonian settler won't be down in the south for another 16 turns, and the Forkmouth settler won't be down there for another 17 or so turns. Meanwhile the FP will be complete in 13 to 14 turns.

Ah, right, I forgot we will be adding a pop point to Karina soon, which will speed the FP build up. You do have a point on the timing... it will take some time to get those settlers down there, yes.

Actually, speaking about the settler builds... what about building a settler in Jackson now (right after the merc currently in works is finished)? Jackson has, for all/most practical purposes, the same useful shield output at pop 5 as at pop 6, plus it has constant problems with keeping under pop 6 (unlike Forkmouth, e.g., which is on a river)...

	10-07-2003 01:45									#148
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On Jackson: I think it's too late to build a settler, as its food box is already overflowing, but what about Merc(finished in 90 BC)-Worker-Merc-Settler? This settler could found Invoice, for the settler would be finished in 8 turns, and would take up to 7 turns to reach the city site. Invoice would be founded post-FP and wouldn't interfere with the FP build.

	10-07-2003 01:53									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep On Jackson: I think it's too late to build a settler, as its food box is already overflowing, but what about Merc(finished in 90 BC)-Worker-Merc-Settler? This settler could found Invoice, for the settler would be finished in 8 turns, and would take up to 7 turns to reach the city site. Invoice would be founded post-FP and wouldn't interfere with the FP build.

No problem with the foodbox in Jackson - thanks to the mined desert, we can now fully control its food surplus without sacrificing shields or commerce. Just use the desert instead of one bonus grass and you can delay the growth at will.

	10-07-2003 02:03									#150
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True... but there's really no point, as the box will just stay full with a bonus grass. Working the desert would waste potential food production. Not to mention we'd either have to send this settler south too, or send it to Invoice and delay the founding a few turns (Invoice interferes with Karina's corurption). Also, this new worker can join Jack in clearing the jungle, making it take 7 turns to clear instead of 12.