13-02-2003 13:27									#31
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UR: Hmm? China's a big friend of ours in the war on terrorism. They've used it as an excuse to clamp down in their Western provinces with Muslim populations, right? Far worse than we've got it here, where I can assure you the most ridiculous accusations are thrown at Bush and our Intelligence offices without fear of goony men. Heck, look at Amira Baraka, New Jersey's poet laureate, who wrote his lovely little poem about it being a white guy/Israeli conspiracy to blow up the Twin Towers and continue to keep black men down. Our governor has had a very hard time removing him from his position (by the way, he's a really bad poet as well, which is probably a better justification for canning him).

	13-02-2003 17:50									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The PRC calls itself a socialist state.

And I call myself God. It doesn't make it so.

But hey if you guys believe China is Socialism...

If you want to start a capitalist vs commie argument about the treatment of workers, let's talk about workers' rights before unions in America (a leftist, socialist concept). In the early 20th century, Trusts payed little wages, and forced men and children to work 16 hour shifts. Without social progressives, America wouldn't have it's middle class.

	13-02-2003 19:23									#33
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quote: On the contrary, comrade, we have more political freedom here than in the US.

Sure you do.

Pssst: BIN LADEN! OSAMA! AL QAEDA!

No trenchcoat goons sighted. I'll let you know, though.

-Arrian

	13-02-2003 19:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger On the contrary, comrade, we have more political freedom here than in the US.

I'm constantly amazed at the things people say when I know they aren't trolling. I'm not even able to read that with a straight face.

	13-02-2003 21:09									#35
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So...has anyone seen Arrian since he said, "Pssst: BIN LADEN! OSAMA! AL QAEDA!"

	13-02-2003 21:11									#36
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They are coming for you now, Zkribbler.

	13-02-2003 22:07									#37
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Interesting article, from what I've seen living here for two years, I don't doubt it. The author mentioned the limits of Beijing's control - this country seems far less monolithic than many assume. Regional and local Party officials, as well as other organizations, often have considerable power and independence.

quote: have left China's impoverished countryside for jobs in the cities, where they are treated as second-class citizens

This is indeed a terrible problem. People from rural areas are viewed with thinly veiled contempt. In this part of the country, the very terms "countryside person", "farmer", and "villager" are all considered derogatory. At least peasant construction workers here in affluent Shanghai often live in relatively nice housing erected on site for them. Whether they fare any better than their southern colleagues in receiving their rightful pay is not known to me, although I have never seen or heard of any labor problems (or attempted suicides) here in Shanghai.

quote: Sounds like anti-commie propaganda to me

Sounds perfectly believable to me, I'm very sorry to say.

quote: Protesters carried a portrait of revolutionary leader Mao Zedong

The irony is too rich!

quote: then I call it fascist.

I think it may have been The New Republic that carried an opinion piece a few months ago arguing this same point.

quote: On the contrary, comrade, we have more political freedom here than in the US.

This must have been a joke, right?

quote: At least, we can say bin Laden or al-Qaeda

Maybe you can say "bin Laden", but just try to visit the New York Times' web site. Both my home ISP and the one used at work have for a couple of weeks been blocking more western news sources than ever before, something I have not read about in the western press (maybe cuz I can’t see it! ). I'm down to Ananova.com and Yahoo news. Even the San Jose Mercury News is blocked, that's never happened before. Are sites blocked to HK access?

quote: I wonder if China's going to do a full return to capitalism or if they're just letting the capitalists build the infrastructure, and then going back to state socialism.

When capitalists were allowed into the Communist Party, it was asked if the Party would control the capitalists or would the capitalists end up controlling the Party. I don’t think it's a matter of if, looks more like "when" to me. Power has a way of following money around here.

	13-02-2003 22:18									#38
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quote: So...has anyone seen Arrian since he said, "Pssst: BIN LADEN! OSAMA! AL QAEDA!"

Everything's a-ok. Wait a minute... who are those guys? What the f.. *transmission ends*



All is well. I must go now to brave the evil Mall and purchase a Valentine's Day gift for my gf. Blah.

-Arrian

	13-02-2003 22:45									#39
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quote: When a State (such as China) acts to rapidly open itself up to free-market reform while retaining a dictatorial style of government, then I call it fascist.

Totalitarian /= Fascist. It requires more things than that.

Though China though may head that way... all it needs is iron handed rule by a single leader instead of a party to journey into the area.

	13-02-2003 23:13									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The PRC calls itself a socialist state.

And If I call myself Bill Gates does that make it so?

	13-02-2003 23:16									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Nice job showing your ignorance. The Washington Post is a left of center newspaper which repetedly endorses Democraitc candidates. It is also a highly respected source of journalism.

They still are against Socialism and you know it.

	13-02-2003 23:27									#42
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quote: I'm down to Ananova.com and Yahoo news. Even the San Jose Mercury News is blocked, that's never happened before.

Is the Great Firewall back up?

PS As an experiment for my own benefit try to access this site: http://www.clarionledger.com/

	13-02-2003 23:30									#43
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You anti-commies are missing something. I'm not saying that China has ever treated their workers very good, but the current trouble in China is caused by both the Communist Party in China and the use of the free market in China. The Communist Party is trying to get people out of the rural areas and into the cities as fast as they can, and in the process they are commiting a horrible crime against the poor there. And what is there weapon? It's capitalism you dumbies, not communism. HA!

Again just because China calls itself Socialist, it remains an objective fact that they are fascist.

	13-02-2003 23:51									#44
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Socialism is what makes the EU so much superioir to the US

	14-02-2003 00:07									#45
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Socialism is what makes the EU so much superioir to the US

	14-02-2003 00:33									#46
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I wouldn't call the EU socialist. Just that they are less free market crazy than the US and have more better social welfare programs. That is just better capitalism

	14-02-2003 02:19									#47
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"

Is there a country without problems? Don't tell me it's the US "

Thread isn't about the US.

"Could you be a bit more descriptive and quantitative about it? How harsh is harsh? How is the labour unrest being "brutally repressed?" Did they get fired on or something? "

Read the articles. How do you as a communist feel about it? I would say that non paying workers for work they do is pretty bad.

Che: In real capitalism, or at least a form that I would support, if you go to work for an employer you are entitled to be paid.(unless its something like prison labor)

"On the contrary, comrade, we have more political freedom here than in the US. At least, we can say bin Laden or al-Qaeda without a bunch of goony men in trench coats and shades paying us a visit."

Ok then. Why don't you go organize a pro-democracy protest condmening the current govenment. I wonder what a good place for that would be- ah I know how about Tienamen Square?

	14-02-2003 02:42									#48
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@ entire thread, esp. at Urban Ranger.

	14-02-2003 02:44									#49
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quote: It's capitalism you dumbies, not communism. HA!

If you consider China to have capitalism then you REALLY don't understand the meaning of the word.

	14-02-2003 02:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's capitalism you dumbies, not communism. HA! If you consider China to have capitalism then you REALLY don't understand the meaning of the word.

Oh, lets see. The meaning of the word is the private ownership of the means of production. I think I know what capitalism is.

	14-02-2003 08:22									#51
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: On the contrary, comrade, we have more political freedom here than in the US. This must have been a joke, right?

Not completely.

We don't:

-- have a TIPS
-- have a Homeland Security Department
-- profile certain groups of people

So people don't get to vote, but as chegitz pointed out elsewhere, being able to vote is not the sole indicator of whether a country is democratic or not.

	14-02-2003 08:25									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Read the articles.

Stop going around in circles. I have already shown that the article in the OP cannot be verified. Anything else?

	14-02-2003 08:27									#53
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Shi, the US isn't even real capitalism. There are so many anti-capitalistic features about the US. That's why I hate American Capitalism. It benefits the rich and corporations.

	14-02-2003 08:28									#54
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire UR: Hmm? China's a big friend of ours in the war on terrorism. They've used it as an excuse to clamp down in their Western provinces with Muslim populations, right?

Are you suggesting that they let the terorists go free? Surely you must know of all the bombings and other terrorist attacks in the Xinjiang province.

	14-02-2003 08:29									#55
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quote: So people don't get to vote, but as chegitz pointed out elsewhere, being able to vote is not the sole indicator of whether a country is democratic or not.

The US's idea of Democracy is which two old-protestant white guys are we going to choose between. And then popular vote doesn't even matter. Sure, Democracy

	14-02-2003 08:31									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Shi, the US isn't even real capitalism. There are so many anti-capitalistic features about the US. That's why I hate American Capitalism. It benefits the rich and corporations.

Don't wake him up, he's in his own little world of dreams. I can tell he has never been to the Third World to look at the sweatshops and child labour.

	14-02-2003 08:32									#57
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Kathy Lee tells me there's no such thing!







my new fave smiley

	14-02-2003 08:34									#58
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Sava,

Damn, what the hell does that mean

	14-02-2003 08:36									#59
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Remember, Kathy Lee's product line was being made in Central America/South America by kids in sweatshops.

	14-02-2003 08:50									#60
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Are you suggesting that they let the terorists go free? Surely you must know of all the bombings and other terrorist attacks in the Xinjiang province.

Ah yes, that's the name, I'm always hesitant when talking about China because it's easy to mess up similar but different names (Like the good old Shansi province right next to the Shanxi, or something similarly close...). And of course I'm not in favor of terrorism. It's just that from what I know, the government over there has something a little stronger than TIPS and the Office of Homeland Security in place to enforce the law- they've just been afraid of international scorn if they used it. Now that the States is clamping down (something I'm not a huge fan of, mind), the PRC doesn't look so bad doing their version of clamping down. The point is, you guys were already farther down that path.

Btw, you do know that TIPS was just an idea that was defeated, right? Politicians were afraid of, among other things, the will of the voters. Maybe being able to vote isn't such a bad idea after all.