14-02-2003 11:38									#91
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Ah ha.

OK, first the obvious. You got the public and private mixed up. Public sector = 45%, not 55%.

Still seems a bit high, but I can't be arsed at this time of night to check it.

	14-02-2003 11:52									#93
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There was a good documentary that Frontline ran tonight called China In The Red which went followed 30 Chinese from 1998 through 2001.

The filmakers said that their minders did not allow them to film or interview the unemployed in a city that had estimated unemployment of about 15% of the entire population. Then the local government didn't allow them to film one of the people whose condition went downhill after the first two interviews. Another was sentenced to death for graft and wasn't allowed to be interviewed again. Lastly, a government-run company disallowed one of their menial laborers from following up with the filmakers.

3/30 muzzled and this was a middle-of-the-road apolitical generally favorable documentary!

	14-02-2003 12:19									#94
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Christ, like people don't know there is unemployment there.

	14-02-2003 13:05									#95
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Ah ha. OK, first the obvious. You got the public and private mixed up. Public sector = 45%, not 55%. Still seems a bit high, but I can't be arsed at this time of night to check it.

I read the figure about 5 years ago, and it might have been from a source older than that.

Note in 1992 it was 52.7%....or ~55%

	14-02-2003 13:11									#96
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I'm not saying that China has ever treated their workers very good,

[grammar police]
. . . very well
[/grammar police]

There was a really interesting piece on the PBS documentary series, Frontline, tonight, "China in the Red." You can watch the entire program over the net, too. Anyway, the gist of it was that the market reforms are badly hurting a large segmnt of China's workforce. Many of the workers they interviewed not only look back with longing on the old way of doing things, they way they described it was that they actually enjoyed their work.

China's headed for big trouble. There are mass demonstrations by the unemployed daily. If the Communist Party doesn't figure out a way to help these people, the coutry's gonna explode.

	14-02-2003 13:15									#97
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Che,

is that tonight tonight, as in later on. or last night as in already been played. I'd really like to see it.

delay that. i got it off the link. it's obvious anyway

Last edited by DuncanK on 14-02-2003 at 13:22

	14-02-2003 14:47									#98
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quote: There was a really interesting piece on the PBS documentary series, Frontline, tonight, "China in the Red." You can watch the entire program over the net, too. Anyway, the gist of it was that the market reforms are badly hurting a large segmnt of China's workforce. Many of the workers they interviewed not only look back with longing on the old way of doing things, they way they described it was that they actually enjoyed their work. China's headed for big trouble. There are mass demonstrations by the unemployed daily. If the Communist Party doesn't figure out a way to help these people, the coutry's gonna explode.

better that than all the crap they did in the 60s and 70s, IMO.

	14-02-2003 15:26									#99
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As more and more of the inefficient state run companies are put out of business by the more efficient market orientated companies then China's problems are only going to grow.

	14-02-2003 17:44									#100
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First of all, allow me to say that I am probably one of few here who has actually lived in a socialist state for 20 years or so.

What I cannot agree upon is the generalization of the term social state. To Shi: you have to know that China is NOT the only socialist state in the world. Yes, there have been much more of them, but they dissapeared in the 1990s.

So, from first hand experience I have to tell you that the socialist concept was quite humane. Much more that capitalism. I remember all workers having a regular paycheck, almost no layoffs, the rights of the workers were FAR better that in the USA or western Europe. They still are because after the transition not much was changed due to strong worker syndicates. Private enterpreneurship was almost non-existant until the 80s but thats what you get when the state runs things. Things like a whole town losing their job because the local steel mill got taken over just didnt happen.

So please dont generalize: it makes you sound so frickin ignorant american.

	14-02-2003 17:45									#101
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First of all, allow me to say that I am probably one of few here who has actually lived in a socialist state for 20 years or so.

What I cannot agree upon is the generalization of the term social state. To Shi: you have to know that China is NOT the only socialist state in the world. Yes, there have been much more of them, but they dissapeared in the 1990s.

So, from first hand experience I have to tell you that the socialist concept was quite humane. Much more that capitalism. I remember all workers having a regular paycheck, almost no layoffs, the rights of the workers were FAR better that in the USA or western Europe. They still are because after the transition not much was changed due to strong worker syndicates. Private enterpreneurship was almost non-existant until the 80s but thats what you get when the state runs things. Things like a whole town losing their job because the local steel mill got taken over just didnt happen.

So please dont generalize: it makes you sound so frickin ignorant american and that makes other americans feel uncomfortable.

	14-02-2003 18:37									#102
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quote: So, from first hand experience I have to tell you that the socialist concept was quite humane. Much more that capitalism. I remember all workers having a regular paycheck, almost no layoffs, the rights of the workers were FAR better that in the USA or western Europe. They still are because after the transition not much was changed due to strong worker syndicates. Private enterpreneurship was almost non-existant until the 80s but thats what you get when the state runs things. Things like a whole town losing their job because the local steel mill got taken over just didnt happen.

I was born, and spent my early childhood in the USSR.

	14-02-2003 19:53									#103
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Private enterpreneurship was almost non-existant until the 80s but thats what you get when the state runs things.

Not a fair trade.

	14-02-2003 20:17									#104
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quote: I can deal with this one.

--

And China needs to go through some growing pains as it becomes more capitalist. Of course, one of the problems is that you really cannot have an independant labor union in a country that says it is a 'workers' state' (whether it is true or not).

	14-02-2003 21:54									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I can deal with this one. -- And China needs to go through some growing pains as it becomes more capitalist. Of course, one of the problems is that you really cannot have an independant labor union in a country that says it is a 'workers' state' (whether it is true or not).

China is just too big. Maybe it will do better in the information age if they can develope enough, but as Che says its very unstable. I would never invest a lot of money there.

	14-02-2003 21:57									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Daz So please dont generalize: it makes you sound so frickin ignorant american and that makes other americans feel uncomfortable.

	14-02-2003 22:05									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin As more and more of the inefficient state run companies are put out of business by the more efficient market orientated companies then China's problems are only going to grow.

The thing is that the Chinese have taken a Keynesian approach to development. That is the first time Keynesian economics has been used that way. They did set a goal for ballancing their budget in the future but I'm not sure if they met that goal. Ballancing the budget is where the problem comes in. Because that means either cutting government spending or increasing taxes and neither of those things create jobs.

I'm sure that China is more concerned with the finances than they are at making sure most of their people have jobs. And that is the dangerous part, because at this point one little recession could be a disaster as a virtual army of the unemployed is created.

	15-02-2003 02:08									#108
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Investing in China may be dicey (but may pay off in the long run). The big state is inhibiting growth I think. There needs to be more privatization along with independant labor unions. With a commitment to a big state, I doubt either will happen any time soon.

	15-02-2003 02:15									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Investing in China may be dicey (but may pay off in the long run). The big state is inhibiting growth I think. There needs to be more privatization along with independant labor unions. With a commitment to a big state, I doubt either will happen any time soon.

Don't you agree about what I said about the cause of unemployment in China? They can't just start closing state businesses like crazy. That would be disaster.

	15-02-2003 02:19									#110
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No, not close, but gradually selling portions of them off at intervals. And make sure what happened in Russia doesn't happen in the PRC.

	15-02-2003 02:21									#111
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That's what they are doing. But the fact that the unemployment rate is too high and workers are being abused would suggest that they are closing state run enterprizes too quickly.

	15-02-2003 02:33									#112
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Not necessarily. We can't spread privatising industries over 200 years. I think they are doing a pretty good job, but there are bound to be growing pains.

Further, I believed that China was selling its industries, not closing them.

	15-02-2003 03:28									#113
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Well, maybe so. But they are causing unemployment by cutting government spending and that could be catastrophic.

	15-02-2003 03:47									#114
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I don't think they'll have trouble employing everyone, in the long run. I don't think it will be a good thing for the world generally, because they're employed on rather piss poor conditions.

	15-02-2003 19:23									#115
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quote: Is the Great Firewall back up?

First, it depends on your ISP. Mine has recently become much worse, a friend with ADSL has noticed nothing. Second, it was never completely down, but for a long time my ISP was only blocking a small number of sites.

quote: PS As an experiment for my own benefit try to access this site: http://www.clarionledger.com/

I can see it!

quote: The Communist Party is trying to get people out of the rural areas and into the cities as fast as they can

That couldn’t be more wrong! The government is trying very hard to limit the number of peasants entering the cities. There is a form of internal passport called the hukou, if you don't have one for the city you are in, it's hard to get work or a place to live. Of course, many country people are already living and working in the cities (usually illegally), but the gov't is trying to keep a human tidal wave from swamping the urban areas.

quote: So people don't get to vote, but as chegitz pointed out elsewhere, being able to vote is not the sole indicator of whether a country is democratic or not.

Surely you are not suggesting that is the only significant difference in political freedom between PRC and USA?

quote: If you really think that China has private ownership of the means of production then you have absolutely no clue. (...) This can only mean that private ownership over the means of production MUST be at the least over 50%.

I believe last year the private sector made of 50% of the GDP, and this trend is showing no signs of slowing. Are you going to change your definition now, or do you have "have absolutely no clue"?

	15-02-2003 19:26									#116
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quote: because they're employed on rather piss poor conditions.

It's all relative. Generally, the current conditions of employment are superior (and in many cases far superior) to those of the recent past. Note: this does not apply to the northeast "rustbelt".

	15-02-2003 19:29									#117
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: The Communist Party is trying to get people out of the rural areas and into the cities as fast as they can That couldn’t be more wrong! The government is trying very hard to limit the number of peasants entering the cities. There is a form of internal passport called the hukou, if you don't have one for the city you are in, it's hard to get work or a place to live. Of course, many country people are already living and working in the cities (usually illegally), but the gov't is trying to keep a human tidal wave from swamping the urban areas.

True, but the reforms started in the countryside to drive people into the city. The reforms aren't working out as nicely as they wanted so the have to keep people out of areas that they would concentrate in. Obviously, high concentrations of unemployed people are a dangerous thing there.

	16-02-2003 01:00									#118
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The PRC calls itself a socialist state.

The USA calls itself a democracy.

	16-02-2003 01:35									#119
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That's a troll. I acknowledge the US to be a democracy, why don't you?

	18-02-2003 21:14									#120
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quote: so the have to keep people out of areas that they would concentrate in.

Uh, if Chinese cities don't constitute concentrations of people, I don't know what does. If they want to keep people out of areas where they might concentrate, why would they encourage them to go to cities, of all places?