19-02-2003 09:15									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel That's a troll. I acknowledge the US to be a democracy, why don't you?

I dunno, a bunch of people keep saying that the US is not a democracy, it is a republic.

	19-02-2003 09:21									#122
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: So people don't get to vote, but as chegitz pointed out elsewhere, being able to vote is not the sole indicator of whether a country is democratic or not. Surely you are not suggesting that is the only significant difference in political freedom between PRC and USA?

Nominally, no, actually, the difference is much less.

	21-02-2003 17:25									#123
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quote: Nominally, no, actually, the difference is much less.

Wow, have you ever been to the US? I think there is no possible way that you know what you are talking about here.

I've lived in (and love) both countries, the differences in political freedom are plainly staggering.

	21-02-2003 20:34									#124
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What are the differences in political freedom?

And living in Shanghai, why do you think they promote people to move to the already dense cities?

	21-02-2003 22:49									#125
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: so the have to keep people out of areas that they would concentrate in. Uh, if Chinese cities don't constitute concentrations of people, I don't know what does. If they want to keep people out of areas where they might concentrate, why would they encourage them to go to cities, of all places?

Industrialization takes place in cities. They want people to move to cities, but when the unemployed start to get concentrated they have to do something. China would have gone nowhere if they would not have done something to get people to the cities.

	21-02-2003 22:54									#126
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quote: Originally posted by muppet What are the differences in political freedom? And living in Shanghai, why do you think they promote people to move to the already dense cities?

They do? I was under the impression that they were doing precisely the opposite, making it very difficult to get an internal passport that would let you move to the city.

	21-02-2003 22:56									#127
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Without an internal passport, IIRC, it's almost impossible to get a real apartment to live in. People still move illegally and take up residence in shantytowns...

	24-02-2003 23:21									#128
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quote: What are the differences in political freedom?

Well, that's a major topic not readily dealt with in a quick summary. I suppose it all comes back to having the government run by a single unelected, unaccountable party. This results in many problems, including:
- citizenry has little input into the governing of their nation
- citizens are almost legally defenseless against their government
- little press freedom (some hopeful signs are growing)
- corruption throughout entire government apparatus can thwart justice
- workers not allowed to form independent labor unions
- any sign of political competition is immediately eliminated
- public gatherings must have official approval.
- although improving rapidly, the legal system has major problems

Having said that, I'm not sure I would characterize many Chinese as "oppressed". They tend to understand their role within the system, accept that which they cannot change, and live their lives accordingly. Here in Shanghai, most people seem generally apathetic about anything political, I believe it is generally the same throughout the country.

quote: And living in Shanghai, why do you think they promote people to move to the already dense cities?

Uh, when I wrote "That couldn’t be more wrong!", did you think I was agreeing?

quote: Industrialization takes place in cities. They want people to move to cities, (...)

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you state this. What efforts to persuade people to move to cities are you referring to? I'm talking about relatively recent Chinese history. I don't think anyone has been encouraging urban emigration for at least a few decades, in fact it is officially discouraged via the internal passport-like hukou system I described earlier.

By the way, I think China's biggest cities already qualify as "industrialized". They have electricity here, you know!

	24-02-2003 23:32									#129
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mindseye,

The reforms started in the countryside. I'm not sure what they were exactly, but many farmers were forced to move to the city because they couldn't make it where they were.

I wouldn't call China industrialized, even today. I think a place has to reach a certain level of prosperity. Even though there is electricity, the majority of workers still work so inefficiently that the standard of living is very low. For the changes to take place in the city, more workers were needed. Without more workers, inflation would have sky rocketed and new industries would have trouble finding people to hire. That's why they started the reforms in the countryside.

	24-02-2003 23:49									#130
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Here's some details on the agricultural reforms that started in 1979.

The first reforms toward achieving the new national objective began in poor rural areas in 1979, when the government replaced communal farming and distribution with the household contracting and responsibility system. Under this system, individual farm households worked separate plots of land owned by an economic collective. The households could sell produce at farmers’ markets for whatever price buyers were willing to pay in return for selling a certain amount of produce to the collective at a predetermined price. The contract and responsibility system was successful because it gave farmers an incentive to reduce production costs and increase productivity.
-Encarta

And the farmers who could not compete moved to the city.

	25-02-2003 00:20									#131
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The government encouraged migration to the cities to fill unskilled labor jobs, but at the same time tries to control it with an internal passport program or 'hokou'.

Forced migration to the countryside decreased after the death of Communist leader Mao Zedong in 1976. Economic reforms adopted in 1978 virtually eliminated the practice. However, the government still controls migration from rural areas to urban areas through the household registration system.

Beginning in the late 1970s the government permitted limited and temporary migration to the cities. This move came about in part because a booming economy had created the need for unskilled workers in construction and low-level service jobs.
-Encarta

	25-02-2003 13:44									#132
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Uh, Duncan, maybe you didn't notice but everything you quoted contradicts your claim.

The government does not encourage rural people to move to cities, instead it is searching for ways to increase rural incomes by getting peasants out of subsistance farming and into something more profitable so they can make increase the quality of their lives without having to move to the cities.

Sure, there is a need for workers in some cities, but many cities already have high unemployment rates (especially in the NE). Adding destitute rural immigrants is not a desirable policy. Much of the labor demand these days is for skilled, educated labor. Rural folks who manage to find some kindof work usually end up as construction workers, restaurant workers, domestic help, cab drivers, etc.

quote: I wouldn't call China industrialized, even today.

???
What's it take? They are one of the world's major computer manufacturers. They plan to put a man into space this year. Does your country have a mag-lev railway? I didn't think so.

Lots of people here live in modern high-rises, take the subway to work, or even own their own (Chinese-manufactured) car. In urban areas more than one-third of households have an internet-connected pc (cable modems and ADSL are not expensive). Big-screen TVs, DVD players, microwave ovens, air conditioning, washing machines with digital displays are all common in households in cities. Streets are crowded with modern vehicles, from Citroen to Mercedes. Ifyou don't believe me, I could post a few hundred photos.

	25-02-2003 15:52									#133
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The rural areas aren't doing that hot, though. They need to do something fast for the farmers, too, before time runs out and they cannot protect agriculture under WTO.

On second thought, the US and France are doing that just fine. I am sure they will find a way.

	25-02-2003 20:07									#134
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quote: The rural areas aren't doing that hot, though.

Ironic, given that the revolution was carried on their shoulders. I agree with you, I think the standard of living in rural areas is one of China's most pressing problems. The contrast with the cities is striking.

quote: I wouldn't call China industrialized, even today.

DuncanK, Now I'm at home and can post a photo. This was taken about ten blocks from my apartment. This doesn't make your definition of "industrialized"?

	25-02-2003 20:18									#135
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To be fair to DuncanK, about 2/3rd to 3/4th of the people live in rural areas. As far as I can tell, most farming is non-industrialized and uses technology that seems right out of the 1870s in the US.

One of the problems China is facing is that bettering the lot of rural people is very difficult. You don't need at least 24/25th the people that China has in agriculture. So people are going to be coming to the cities by the hundreds of millions whether the government wants it or not, absent some drastically oppressive measures.

Last edited by DanS on 25-02-2003 at 20:27

	26-02-2003 07:59									#136
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quote: To be fair to DuncanK, about 2/3rd to 3/4th of the people live in rural areas.

His original comment was about the cities: ("Industrialization takes place in cities. They want people to move to cities") as was my original response. Get those bifocals back on, DanS!

Besides, you have to remember that the number of urban Chinese is about the same as the entire population of the USA, so we're not talking about a trivially small group of people. The ongoing modernization of China's cities has been an accomplishment of staggering proportions.

quote: As far as I can tell, most farming is non-industrialized and uses technology that seems right out of the 1870s in the US.

Very much of it is. However, things like small tractors are becoming more and more common sight in the countryside. China is so vast and so varied that it's really hard to generalize about anything. The cities and the rural areas (expecially in the west) are like two different worlds. It's so weird to be on the subway and see computer programmers sitting next to full-on peasants.

quote: You don't need at least 24/25th the people that China has in agriculture

So true, and thus the paradox: modernizing agricultural techniques will only make rural labor more redundant. Hopefully increasing rural incomes will create all sorts of other types of work associated with higher standards of living (e.g. home appliance sales and repair, transportation, etc).