14-02-2003 09:16									#61
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire Are you suggesting that they let the terorists go free? Surely you must know of all the bombings and other terrorist attacks in the Xinjiang province. Ah yes, that's the name, I'm always hesitant when talking about China because it's easy to mess up similar but different names (Like the good old Shansi province right next to the Shanxi, or something similarly close...). And of course I'm not in favor of terrorism. It's just that from what I know, the government over there has something a little stronger than TIPS and the Office of Homeland Security in place to enforce the law- they've just been afraid of international scorn if they used it.

You mean something like a social security account? Everybody needs to register an account in order to receive social benefits, things such as public education. Law enforcement uses this information to help tracking down criminals and the like. AFAIK, however, there's no racial profiling.

quote: Originally posted by SnowFire Now that the States is clamping down (something I'm not a huge fan of, mind), the PRC doesn't look so bad doing their version of clamping down. The point is, you guys were already farther down that path. Btw, you do know that TIPS was just an idea that was defeated, right? Politicians were afraid of, among other things, the will of the voters. Maybe being able to vote isn't such a bad idea after all.

Thing is, it was worse in the PRC before, and it wasn't as bad in the US. So the PRC has been progressing, and the US has been regressing, sorry to say.

	14-02-2003 09:50									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Remember, Kathy Lee's product line was being made in Central America/South America by kids in sweatshops.

Yeah, I remember. He took that out of context I'm sure. It just seemed funny the way he did it.

	14-02-2003 10:01									#63
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quote: The meaning of the word is the private ownership of the means of production.

If you really think that China has private ownership of the means of production then you have absolutely no clue.

	14-02-2003 10:19									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The meaning of the word is the private ownership of the means of production. If you really think that China has private ownership of the means of production then you have absolutely no clue.

Imran, how often do you argue from your other end?

	14-02-2003 10:26									#65
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Yes, I know you are a China apologist, but when the government has significant shares of means of production, I fail to see how you can state the country has private ownership of the means of production.

Though I'm not sure that many Chinese apologists would consider the country's economy to be capitalist.

	14-02-2003 10:28									#66
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Imran,

Read something about China that has happened in the last 10-15 years.

	14-02-2003 10:28									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, I know you are a China apologist, but when the government has significant shares of means of production, I fail to see how you can state the country has private ownership of the means of production.

Just because a country has state-owned enterprises doesn't exclude the existence of private companies. Your logic seems a bit faulty here.

Stop editing your post when I am replying to it

	14-02-2003 10:31									#68
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Imran, especially when from what I can see the abuses being documented occured in the private sector.

The existence of foremen who are contracted for a project and are responsible for paying their crew seems to indicate a privately-run construction firm.

	14-02-2003 10:34									#69
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quote: Read something about China that has happened in the last 10-15 years.

Sorry, I didn't read about them selling ALL of their state owned enterprises, or even half of them away.

quote: Just because a country has state-owned enterprises doesn't exclude the existence of private companies.

Read the definition: private ownership over the means of production. This can only mean that private ownership over the means of production MUST be at the least over 50%.

Just because you have a few capitalist industries doesn't make you a capitalist country, just like having a few socialist organizations doesn't make you into a socialist country.

China is moving towards capitalism, but isn't there yet.

	14-02-2003 10:34									#70
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"being able to vote is not the sole indicator of whether a country is democratic or not."

Actually it is. In a democratic government, the people have the right to choose their leaders. The Chinese people can't


"Stop going around in circles. I have already shown that the article in the OP cannot be verified. Anything else?"

Yes, the second article. And are you suggesting the first article is made up? They did have a name, and the washington post is considered a reputable newspaper.

"AFAIK, however, there's no racial profiling. "

So Han get treated the same as Uighurs?

"
Don't wake him up, he's in his own little world of dreams. I can tell he has never been to the Third World to look at the sweatshops and child labour. "

No sweatshops in China!? You think all the stuff in the US with the "Made in China" labels in the US the workers are in non-sweatshops conditions!?

	14-02-2003 10:40									#71
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quote: Imran, especially when from what I can see the abuses being documented occured in the private sector.

Expansion of capitalist reforms result in certain problems. The existance of those problems do not indicate a capitalist economic system.

China isn't socialist right now either. They are best called a mixed system, similar to, but having a little more state control than Scandinavian economies.

	14-02-2003 10:40									#72
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Imran,

It's the market and the private ownership of capital that is causing the crisis with labor in China. Those are the tools that the Chinese are using to mobilize their workforce.

	14-02-2003 10:41									#73
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Mixed economy is what everyone has Imran. We have it here too. What is your point?

	14-02-2003 10:43									#74
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So you are saying that crisis with labor due to private ownership of capital doesn't occur in mixed economies such as Sweden? I'm not sure many people would call Sweden 'capitalist'. Though I disagree with the majority that refer to them as 'socialist'.

Actually, it seems that the introduction of capitalist reforms is the problem, because the society hasn't totally adapted.

	14-02-2003 10:44									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Read something about China that has happened in the last 10-15 years. Sorry, I didn't read about them selling ALL of their state owned enterprises, or even half of them away. quote: Just because a country has state-owned enterprises doesn't exclude the existence of private companies. Read the definition: private ownership over the means of production. This can only mean that private ownership over the means of production MUST be at the least over 50%. Just because you have a few capitalist industries doesn't make you a capitalist country, just like having a few socialist organizations doesn't make you into a socialist country. China is moving towards capitalism, but isn't there yet.

Imran, Canada's economy is ~55% public sector and 45% private sector. Does this actually mean, in your view, that Canada is a socialist country?

If so, then the only capitalist country in the G7 must be the US, since Canada is less socialised than Italy, France etc. and just a bit more so than the UK.

	14-02-2003 10:47									#76
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The fact is, that the abuses being chronicled are those of the private sector of a country moving from public ownership of production to private ownership.

And therefore to use it as an example of the treatment of workers in a socialist state is dishonest.

Perhaps as an example of the treatment of workers in a "socialist state".

I seem to recall that the Nazis also called themselves socialist.

Remember what I said about fascism?

	14-02-2003 10:50									#77
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It is very close, Frogger. I'd call it more of a mixed economy. I do think that socialist economies really cannot have more than, oh, about a 1/3rd private ownership to actually support the claim that the government owns the means of production.

As for the US, It does seem to be one of the few capitalist countries around (but on the border of mixed). The means of production seem to be more located in the private sector in the US than any other Western country.

	14-02-2003 10:53									#78
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quote: Remember what I said about fascism?

Not really, but I wouldn't consider Fascism to endorse capitalism either. The major industries were all owned by party officials and basically under the whip of the leader. There were markets, but the economy was more under the fist of government than people are wont to believe.

quote: Perhaps as an example of the treatment of workers in a "socialist state".

I don't think China is socialist. But they are more state owned than the Scandinavian countries, and it isn't like they have a reputation for free market economics.

	14-02-2003 11:00									#79
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Expansion of capitalist reforms result in certain problems. [QUOTE]

Is it ok if I use this for my signiture?

	14-02-2003 11:02									#80
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Um... sure... it's common sense.

To believe that ANY reforms will not result in certain problems is naive, though it is you .

	14-02-2003 11:07									#81
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Imran, Canada's economy is ~55% public sector and 45% private sector.

Do you have a source for that? Doesn't seem right.

As I understand it, China is about 50/50 right now.

	14-02-2003 11:07									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Remember what I said about fascism? Not really, but I wouldn't consider Fascism to endorse capitalism either. The major industries were all owned by party officials and basically under the whip of the leader. There were markets, but the economy was more under the fist of government than people are wont to believe.

The term fascist is thrown around a lot. But individuals own the property and recieve profit from it, however the decisions regarding the business are ultimately made by the regime.

	14-02-2003 11:11									#83
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True, I'll wait for a better one

	14-02-2003 11:14									#84
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Imran, Canada's economy is ~55% public sector and 45% private sector. Do you have a source for that? Doesn't seem right. As I understand it, China is about 50/50 right now.

Read it a couple of places. It's one of those figures that's always stuck in my mind.

The comments about the socialization nature of other countries in G7 was based on a ranking I saw of tax rates for the countries in question. Admittedly there's not a one to one corespondence, but it's a good indication.

The US had the lowest taxes of the G7, followed by UK, Canada, and then the rest.

	14-02-2003 11:17									#85
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quote: True, I'll wait for a better one

Dammit! You promised me sig space!

quote: As I understand it, China is about 50/50 right now.

When it passes that threshold, I'll call it a capitalist economy.

	14-02-2003 11:19									#86
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Imran,

Give me something better than Marx, and you got it.

	14-02-2003 11:22									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui ...the introduction of capitalist reforms is the problem.

What about this one Imran?

	14-02-2003 11:24									#88
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That's not better than Marx... since that is the standard that you, yourself, set out.

Of course, my response to your Marx quote is "So?"

	14-02-2003 11:29									#89
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Imran, Canada's economy is ~55% public sector and 45% private sector. Do you have a source for that? Doesn't seem right. As I understand it, China is about 50/50 right now.

Ah ha.

http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publicati.../questions.html

quote: public sector spending equalled 46.2 percent of Canada’s GDP in 1996, down from its 1992 high of 52.7 percent

I especially like this bit:

quote: Government spending-to-GDP was 73.5 percent in Newfoundland in 1996, down from an astonishing 84.9 percent in 1992

It's not astonishing given Newfieland's situation. I'm more surprised it never peaked over 100% (given the money they get from the fed and the collapse of the fisheries).

	14-02-2003 11:33									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Of course, my response to your Marx quote is "So?"

I can deal with this one.